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Thread: Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    It's a clear possibility. But I would say it is even more likely to be the case for the Anatolian branch, given that it splited off the main branch very early, which is consistant with the first attested Yamna in Bulgaria/Thrace, in the late IIId millenium BC. The find of one Kurgan dated from 3100 BC/3000 BC near the Bosphorus, in the Western suburbs of Istanbul, is quite interesting in that prospect.

    Given that Greek splited latter could mean a different origin, more directly connected to Pontic Yamnas.

    We'll see. But more samples are needed from Hungary to Central Turkey.
    Yes I have to clarify: I said that in the context of merely cataloguing the haplogroups, at a broad level, between pre and post-4500 BC - those two appear (at present) to have increased the most. The formation of distinct groups and regions is of course far more complex than that. I;m not proposing any simple 'catch-all scenario'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    The transition of Linear B Minoan to Linear A in Myceneans
    Well, it's the opposite. Linear B was used by Myceneans to write an older form of Greek. Linear A is not decyphered, and it's a possibility it will never be, as the language used by Minoans could have been an isolate, and in any way, unrelated to any known language.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 08-04-2017 at 10:15 AM.

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    Of course, I am all for further testing results but I wouldn't dismiss the autosomal that goes with it.
    In addition I think that the line drawn in the sand about Minoan and IE can be shifted with new evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I would wait for at least a few more Mycenaean samples beyond just one belonging to apparently the same y-dna haplogroup as the non-Indo-European Minoans before dismissing the wealth of R1 Indo-European results already accrued.
    Last edited by Isidro; 08-04-2017 at 10:17 AM.

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    Yes I stand corrected, Linear B is Mycenean. Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Well, it's the opposite. Linear B was used by Myceneans to write an older form of Greek. Linear A is not decyphered, and it's a possibility it will never be, as the language used by Minoans could have been an isolate, and in any way, unrelated to any known language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bane View Post
    I thought I knew what the word "clearly" means.
    After this post I will assume that when something is "clear" it does not have to have connection with reality.
    So far, We have at least E-M78 from Hungary Sopot, Croatia Cardial and Cucuteni, and probably Spain.
    Was that in Croatia pre-E V13, or V22 ?

    Either way, they all seem to be in the north Balkans, at present, right ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    Of course, I am all for further testing results but I wouldn't dismiss the autosomal that goes with it.
    I agree there. Let's not dismiss all the autosomal evidence. It adds a tremendous amount of weight to the probability that more Mycenaean samples will eventually yield R1 results and that this one is a non-IE in his y-dna ancestry like the Minoans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    In addition I think that the line drawn in the sand about Minoan and IE can be shifted with new evidence.
    You mean that the Minoans will come to be regarded as Indo-Europeans? Not likely. Too much against it, unless one wants to revisit Colin Renfrew's Neolithic farmer idea, which evidently was not powered by J2a anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    These new results entering the threshold of History are amazing. The transition of Linear B Minoan to Linear A in Myceneans and showing minor autosomal input that makes them different does show continuity, along with uniparental markers J2+ and the appearance of IE is not a surprise to me as I suggested a few months ago when I was asked whom in my opinion brought IE to Western Europe.


    These are still loose ends in my opinion but I will venture and say that El Argar; circa 2,200 BC in Iberia is no coincidence, I predict that not only J2+ will be found but a shift in it's axis on how the missing IE branches in the European Mediterranean got to the Atlantic shores.
    Lusitanian, Celtic, Italic, Iberian, Ligurian, Greek and perhaps others like Proto Basque got it's inception with those movements that clearly show where IE and the borrowed alphabet that we all use today was born(not Iberia to be clear ).


    Of course I am speculating but there are signs in modern languages that ties them together, anyone that knows Spanish and hears Greek for example at the right word indistinguishable distance will thing it is the same language and we all know how different it is. Other curiosities are the similarities of the Romance languages, which in my view do not originally have a common ancestry in Latin or specifically Italic , it goes way back in time and Latin vocabulary has shaped them into more uniformity, the same that has done to a slightly lesser extent with Germanic languages.


    There is also not coincidence that the undeciphered Iberian language is also rooted in an amalgamation of Minoan and Mycenean Linear A and B forms.


    Then we have the famous "q" sound, as far as I know we could lump Q Celtic, Basque, Iberian, Greek and others into an interesting potpourri.


    I don't want to ruffle anyones feathers but I think that R1+ are adopters of IE in two distinguishable branches, R1a- Corded Ware with a CHG connection on one end and R1b with J2+ and perhaps V13 and possibly other haplogroups on the other.
    I think the El Agar culture is interesting, but despite its advanced nature, it appears to have then stagnated and 'demised'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Thank you Jean. Could you provide links to some of the references in that excerpt?
    • Andreu, S. 2010. The Northern Aegean, in The Oxford Handbook of the Bronze Age Aegean, E. H. Cline (ed.), 643-659. Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press.
    • Coleman, J. E. 2000. An archaeological scenario for the coming of the Greeks ca. 3200 B.C., The Journal of Indo-European Studies, 28, 101-153. https://www.academia.edu/4908240/An_...s_ca._3200_B.C
    • Koukouli-Chrysanthaki, Ch. and Papadopoulos, S. 2009. The Island of Thassos and the Aegean in the prehistory, Asmosia VII: Proceedings of the 7th International Conference of Association for the Study of Marble and Other Stones in Antiquity, Thassos, September 15-20, 2003, Bulletin de Correspondance Hellénique Supplément 51. https://www.academia.edu/24939462/Th...The_Prehistory
    • Maniatis, Y. 2011. 14C dating of a Final Neolithic-Early Bronze Age transition period settlement at Aghios Ioannis on Thassos (North Aegean), Radiocarbon, 53 (1), 21–37. https://www.academia.edu/24925758/RA...S_NORTH_AEGEAN
    • Manzura, I. 2005b. The proto-Bronze Age cemetery at Durankulak: a look from the East, in Prehistoric Archaeology and Theorical Anthropology and Education, L. Nikolova, J. Fritz and J. Higgins (eds.), Reports of Prehistoric Research Projects 6-7), 51-55. Salt Lake City and Karlovo. https://www.academia.edu/24925758/RA...S_NORTH_AEGEAN
    • Sherratt, A. 1986. Two new finds of wooden wheels from later Neolithic and Early Bronze Age Europe, Oxford Journal of Archaeology, 5 (2), 243–248. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...tb00356.x/full
    Last edited by Jean M; 08-04-2017 at 10:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    Same model with Yakuts included:

    [1] "distance%=0.3643 / distance=0.003643"

    Turkish_Trabzon

    Armenia_EBA:I1635 67.2
    Mycenaean:I9033 17.4
    Mycenaean:I9006 12.6
    Yakut 2.7
    Armenia_EBA:I1633 0.0

    Actually looks like a bitter fit this time with a little bit of Yakut-like ancestry showing. This time with several other Turkic speaking populations included:

    [1] "distance%=0.3276 / distance=0.003276"

    Turkish_Trabzon

    Armenia_EBA:I1635 61.0
    Mycenaean:I9006 26.7
    Turkmen 9.0
    Mycenaean:I9033 3.3
    Armenia_EBA:I1633 0.0
    Yakut 0.0
    Uzbek 0.0
    Kyrgyz 0.0

    Does anyone know much about the Turkmen here? Are they really West-Asian shifted by any chance? At any rate, this is with just the Kyrgyz (my own personal choice):

    [1] "distance%=0.3467 / distance=0.003467"

    Turkish_Trabzon

    Armenia_EBA:I1635 66.25
    Mycenaean:I9006 16.95
    Mycenaean:I9033 12.65
    Kyrgyz 4.15
    Armenia_EBA:I1633 0.00

    Seems they do have some East-Central Asian admixture, at least based on these results.

    Yes, Turkmens are WestAsian/SouthCentralAsian shifted compared to Kazakhs for example. Are your Turkmens from Yunusbayev's study?

    There is also a significant difference between Yunusbayev's Turkmen samples and new Turkmen samples, the former are more West-Asian shifted whereas the latter is closer to Uzbeks.



    Here is result of a Turk (Yörük) from Antalya, Southwest Anatolia. His Central Asian ancestry appears as Turkmen/Uzbek/Hazara whereas his native ancestry appears as Cypriot/Sicilian/Maltese. "Turkmen" here are new Turkmen samples who are less West Asian shifted than Yunusbayev's Turkmens.


    Population
    CHG 28.76
    Amerindian -
    W_African -
    Papuan 0.57
    SW_Asian 12.98
    S_Indian 5.52
    E_Asian 16.15
    WHG 13.44
    Anatolian_Farmers 17.08
    EHG 5.49

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Turkish 13.24
    2 Turkmen 15.81
    3 Turkmen_Afghan 17.41
    4 Uzbek_Afghan 18.55
    5 Tajik 18.6
    6 Azeri 19.11
    7 Kumyk 20.34
    8 Tajik_Afghan 20.38
    9 Sicilian 21.16
    10 Maltese 21.26
    11 Greek 22.1
    12 Hazara_Afghan 22.36
    13 Adygei 22.38
    14 Lebanese 22.5
    15 Cypriot 22.78
    16 Iranian 23.03
    17 Albanian 23.18
    18 Syrian 23.38
    19 Uzbek 23.54
    20 Chechen 23.83

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 57.5% Turkmen + 42.5% Maltese @ 2.55
    2 57.4% Turkmen + 42.6% Sicilian @ 2.86
    3 51.3% Maltese + 48.7% Hazara_Afghan @ 3.95
    4 55.2% Turkmen_Afghan + 44.8% Maltese @ 4.15
    5 50.9% Cypriot + 49.1% Uzbek @ 4.19
    6 52.6% Maltese + 47.4% Uzbek @ 4.26
    7 57% Turkmen_Afghan + 43% Cypriot @ 4.3
    8 51.4% Sicilian + 48.6% Hazara_Afghan @ 4.44
    9 58.9% Turkmen + 41.1% Greek @ 4.7
    10 61.3% Maltese + 38.7% Hazara @ 4.71


    MDLP k23b results

    On MDLP k23b his Central Asian ancestry appears as Turkmen_Afghan/Turkmen_Uzbekistan/Uzbek/Karakalpak whereas his native ancestry appears as Greek_Smyrna/Greek_Islands/Cretan/South_Italian and other Greek populations

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasian 32.88
    2 European_Early_Farmers 13.78
    3 South_Central_Asian 11.77
    4 Tungus-Altaic 9.43
    5 Near_East 8.82
    6 European_Hunters_Gatherers 5.69
    7 East_Siberian 4.57
    8 Ancestral_Altaic 4.33
    9 North_African 2.54
    10 South_East_Asian 2.36
    11 Austronesian 1.01
    12 Paleo_Siberian 0.95
    13 South_Indian 0.84
    14 Melano_Polynesian 0.53
    15 African_Pygmy 0.33
    16 Australoid 0.16

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Turk_Aydin @ 9.963532
    2 Turk_Balikesir @ 10.322422
    3 Turk @ 13.053263
    4 Turk_Adana @ 13.368528
    5 Turk_Istanbul @ 13.685670
    6 Turk_Kayseri @ 13.972665
    7 Nogai @ 16.335566
    8 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 16.375002
    9 Syrian_Jew @ 16.763538
    10 Cretan @ 17.159893
    11 Azov_Greek @ 17.361341
    12 Sicilian_West @ 17.540180
    13 Greek_Smyrna @ 17.791405
    14 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 17.803604
    15 Turkmen_Uzbekistan @ 17.917810
    16 Sephardic_Jew @ 18.271072
    17 Romanian_Jew @ 18.460768
    18 Georgian_Jew @ 18.496830
    19 French_Jew @ 18.577831
    20 Turk_Jew @ 18.588034

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 58.6% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 41.4% Turkmen_Afghan ( ) @ 2.09
    2 55.7% Greek_Islands ( ) + 44.3% Turkmen_Afghan ( ) @ 2.52
    3 62% Cretan ( ) + 38% Turkmen_Afghan ( ) @ 2.94
    4 62.2% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 37.8% Karakalpak ( ) @ 3.05
    5 51.3% Turkmen_Uzbekistan ( ) + 48.7% Greek_Islands ( ) @ 3.08
    6 59.5% Greek_Smyrna ( ) + 40.5% Uzbek ( ) @ 3.27
    7 50.5% Italian_South ( ) + 49.5% Turkmen_Uzbekistan ( ) @ 3.62
    8 53.2% Greek ( ) + 46.8% Turkmen_Uzbekistan ( ) @ 3.7
    9 51.7% Greek_Athens ( ) + 48.3% Turkmen_Uzbekistan ( ) @ 3.71
    10 56.7% Greek_Islands ( ) + 43.3% Uzbek ( )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    So far, We have at least E-M78 from Hungary Sopot, Croatia Cardial and Cucuteni, and probably Spain.
    Was that in Croatia pre-E V13, or V22 ?

    Either way, they all seem to be in the north Balkans, at present, right ?
    Croatia 7500 ybp - E-L618 (I guess can be called pre-V13)
    Spain 7000 ybp - E-V13
    Sopot 6900 ybp - E-M78
    Lengyel 6700 ybp - E-L618
    Cucuteni 5800 ybp - E-M96

    All are possible ancestors of today's E-V13 but it is not likely it is the case with any of them.

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