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Thread: Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #801
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    Did this steppe admixture came directly from the Pontic steppes, or was it introduced by Anatolian settlers coming from the East? (Remember that Frigians and Armenians spoke languages related to Old Greek)

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  3. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by r_r_abril View Post
    Did this steppe admixture came directly from the Pontic steppes, or was it introduced by Anatolian settlers coming from the East? (Remember that Frigians and Armenians spoke languages related to Old Greek)
    Do you know when they spoke Armenian?

    As far as I know, the ancient skulls at south caucasus area and BMAC are totally different from modern armenoid skull type, which clusters with Hittites and Greek bronze skull. Of course they are extremely close to Cromagnon skull.

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  5. #803
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Do you know when they spoke Armenian?

    As far as I know, the ancient skulls at south caucasus area and BMAC are totally different from modern armenoid skull type, which clusters with Hittites and Greek bronze skull. Of course they are extremely close to Cromagnon skull.

    In Xenophon's time, Armenians still didn't reach the plain of Ararat, which was occupied by other tribes, like the Saspeirs.






    see also, History of Armenia by Vahan Kurkjian, Ch.9

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  7. #804
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    DOUBLE POST
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 03-23-2019 at 04:38 AM.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    When I saw this comment on Eurogenes, I thought to myself: ‘So now the new vogue is that Jews are Greeker than Greeks. Where’s the common sense? Or is history really occasionally that loopy?’

    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I saw Sam posted this on Eurogenes forum:



    How would someone go about addressing a claim like this? The problem I see is that many non-Greek Balkan peoples seem to have a Mycenaean-like base to begin with on top of the Central European "Slavic stuff," an observation which might confuse the issue of how much actual Mycenaean ancestry modern mainland Greeks have. Can the Mycenaean-like ancestry be differentiated from actual Mycenaean ancestry?

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  10. #806
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    I saw Sam posted this comment on Eurogenes forum:

    Modern Greeks are much closer to south Slavs than to Classical Greeks/Myceneans. From, what I can tell they can fit as 70% Romanian/30% Greek. Just a thought.
    I think hypothesizing that mainland Balkan Greeks at 70% non-Greek Balkan + 30% ancient Greek is almost certainly wrong, but I'm not sure how to address claims like this. The problem I see is that many non-Greek Balkan peoples seem to have a Mycenaean-like base to begin with on top of the Central European "Slavic stuff," an observation which might confuse the issue of how much actual Mycenaean ancestry modern mainland Greeks have. Can the Mycenaean-like ancestry be differentiated from actual Mycenaean ancestry?
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Does anyone know when there will be ancient DNA from Classical Greece? I thought they would be published earlier, but 2019, we have ancient DNA from a chewing gum, tobacco pipes and cave sediments, but not Classical Greece.

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    I know a paper is forthcoming on Bronze age Greece, but it's not likely to include classical age samples. Given that we got papers on Iberia and west med I would also not be surprised if something is in the pipeline for the east med. Maybe we will finally find where V13 was hidden all this time.
    Last edited by rafc; 03-23-2019 at 12:23 PM.

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    I looked at the Minoan samples to see if I can find a further downstream of M319, and I did!

    Both samples belong to J2a-M319>S17259*

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-S17259/

    With this branch it makes 3 of the 4 M319 branches that are found ancient and recent Aegean populations.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222>Y15245

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandfather's Mother's line) Y: R1b-U152>L2

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandmother's Mother's line) Y: I2-P78>A427>S23612

    Other Y lines Confirmed: 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-M67, 4x GG on Maternal side: R1b-PF7562, 5x GG on Maternal side: E-V13, 5x GG on Maternal side: R2-L266

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  18. #810
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    The origins of the Greek language according to David W. Anthony:

    "The only major post-Anatolian branch that is difficult to derive from the steppes is Greek. One reason for this is chronological: Pre-Greek probably split away from a later set of developing Indo-European dialects and languages, not from Proto-Indo-European itself. Greek shared traits with Armenian and Phrygian, both of which probably descended from languages spoken in southeastern Europe before 1200 BCE, so Greek shared a common background with some southeastern European languages that might have evolved from the speech of the Yamnaya immigrants in Bulgaria. As noted in chapter 3, Pre-Greek also shared many traits with pre-Indo-Iranian. This linguistic evidence suggests that Pre-Greek should have been spoken on the eastern border of southeastern Europe, where it could have shared some traits with Pre-Armenian and Pre-Phrygian on the west and pre-Indo-Iranian on the east. The early western Catacomb culture would fit these requirements, as it was in touch with southeastern Europe on one side and with the developing Indo-Iranian world of the east on the other. But it is impossible, as far as I know, to identify a Catacomb-culture migration that moved directly from the western steppes into Greece.

    A number of artifact types and customs connect the Mycenaean Shaft Grave princes, the first definite Greek speakers at about 1650 BCE, with steppe or southeastern European cultures. These parallels included specific types of cheekpieces for chariot horses, specific types of socketed spearheads, and even the custom of making masks for the dead, which was common on the Ingul River during the late Catacomb culture, between about 2500 and 2000 BCE. It is very difficult, however, to define the specific source of the migration stream that brought the Shaft Grave princes into Greece. The people who imported Greek or Proto-Greek to Greece might have moved several times, perhaps by sea, from the western Pontic steppes to southeastern Europe to western Anatolia to Greece, making their trail hard to find. The EHII/III transition about 2400-2200 BCE has long been seen as a time of radical change in Greece when new people might have arrived, but the resolution of this problem is outside the scope of this book".
    "The Horse the Wheel and Language, How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes shaped the Modern World", by David W Anthony, pages 368 and 369

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