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Thread: Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    By the way, I am aware of an R1b in an elite Mycenaean grave, but it's not Z2103. So let's wait and see, because R1b also pops up in other cultures around the east Med, and it's probably from Beakers coming from the west Med.
    I would have guessed PF7562 rather than Z2103, but based on your remark we can assume this R1b was L51+?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I would have guessed PF7562 rather than Z2103, but based on your remark we can assume this R1b was L51+?
    I would have guessed PF7562 as well. But perhaps Generalissimo knows something we don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I would have guessed PF7562 rather than Z2103, but based on your remark we can assume this R1b was L51+?
    Probably, but we'll have to wait and see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    I've heard that R1b-z2103 has been found in at least one Mycenean elite grave, and that it is not present (so far) among the commoners, but I don't know when it would be published.
    From the studies on Mycenaens samples, four out of five of their Y-haplogroup was J,and the fifth G2. From which study are you aware of a R1 haplogroup?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihalos View Post
    From the studies on Mycenaens samples, four out of five of their Y-haplogroup was J,and the fifth G2. From which study are you aware of a R1 haplogroup?
    None, sometimes it's inside info
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    I just read something interesting. It appears that Minoan Linear A has recently been shown to be a VSO language. https://www.futurity.org/linear-a-la...oan-2213082-2/

    Its clear the Minoans were not just a continuation of the local Neolithic Greek farmers. They have a large input of CHG and other things pointing eastwards. The most famous geographically relevant VSO languages are the Afro-Asiatic branch with Semitic (which Minoan cannot be or it would have been spotted) the most geographically relevant. Others VSO languages in the region include Ancient Egyptian. Assyrian probably was a VSO language like all its relations originally but it adopted the SOV word order from the Sumerian substrate it overlaid.

    As well as Sumerian, two groups which we might have hope would throw some light on Minoan and the CHG input, Hurrian and Urartian, also are SOV, not VSO like is being suggested for Minoan. VSO word order of Minoan would tend to make one think that the CHG rich groups inflltrating Greece at some point between the Neolithic and the Minoan era could not be linked to SOV languages and peoples -Hurrian, Urartian and Sumerian but rather some sort of Afro-Asiatic group.
    However, as noted with the example of Assyrian adopting the word order of its Sumerian substrate. a substrate under the Minoans could have effected the word order. it cannot be ruled out that the VSO order is a substrate effect from the earlier Neolithic population I suppose. We simply dont know whose language would have dominated when the CHG rich groups (presumably from Anatolia and the east Med.) arrived, the immigrants or the indigenous one.

    That all said, word order appears to be kind of unstable in languages so I wouldnt bet the house on the VSO word order of Linear B being as important as it first appears.

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    Greece_Peloponnese_N
    "Greece_EN" 34.3
    "Buyukkaya_ECA" 33.75
    "Anatolia_Mentese_N" 25.45
    "Anatolia_TellKurdu_ECA" 5.45
    "MotaX5" 1.05
    "distance%=0.2412 / distance=0.002412"

    Greece_Lassithi_Minoan
    "Greece_Peloponnese_N" 64.5
    "Anatolia_CamlibelTarlasi_LCA" 35.1
    "Mota.SG" 0.35
    "Cameroon_ShumLaka_3100BP.SG" 0.05
    "distance%=0.2238 / distance=0.002238"
    Columns:,Anatolia_Barcin_N,Levant_N,Iran_GanjDareh _N,CHG.SG,Taforalt,Vanuatu_ancient,PrimorskyKrai_B oisman_MN,Peru_Laramate_900BP,Karelia_HG,IronGates _Meso1,Yamnaya_Samara,Ust_Ishim.DG
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    Yeah, some CHG/Iran Neo-rich Anatolians must have made their way into Greece at some point prior to the Bronze Age. What's interesting is that the ancestors of the Mycenaeans probably experienced a second wave of it given their enrichment for CHG/Iran Neo (whichever it is) despite having steppe admixture (which you would assume would dilute such ancestry to levels below that of Minoans).

    With that in mind, could you run a similar model for Myceneans using Minoan, Yamnaya, and something like Buyukkaya or the like?
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I just read something interesting. It appears that Minoan Linear A has recently been shown to be a VSO language. https://www.futurity.org/linear-a-la...oan-2213082-2/ ...

    That all said, word order appears to be kind of unstable in languages so I wouldnt bet the house on the VSO word order of Linear B being as important as it first appears.
    At least VSO is reverse Yoda-speak (OSV), so we don't have that to worry about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Yeah, some CHG/Iran Neo-rich Anatolians must have made their way into Greece at some point prior to the Bronze Age. What's interesting is that the ancestors of the Mycenaeans probably experienced a second wave of it given their enrichment for CHG/Iran Neo (whichever it is) despite having steppe admixture (which you would assume would dilute such ancestry to levels below that of Minoans).

    With that in mind, could you run a similar model for Myceneans using Minoan, Yamnaya, and something like Buyukkaya or the like?
    The Mycenean samples are quite strange... they insist on 6-8% SSA admixture. If the results can be interpreted as accurate otherwise, the shift doesn't appear Anatolian like in the case of Peloponnese_N or Minoan, but rather Levantine.

    Greece_Mycenaean
    "Greece_Lassithi_Minoan" 50.85
    "Russia_Mezhovskaya_MLBA.SG" 19
    "Israel_Yehud_IBA" 18.75
    "Mota.SG" 6.55
    "Israel_Megiddo_IBA" 2.3
    "Jordan_AinGhazal_EBA" 1.8
    "Malawi_Hora_9000BP" 0.5
    "Cameroon_ShumLaka_900BP" 0.1
    "Malawi_Fingira_2500BP" 0.1
    "Russia_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA" 0.05
    "distance%=0.2987 / distance=0.002987"
    Columns:,Anatolia_Barcin_N,Levant_N,Iran_GanjDareh _N,CHG.SG,Taforalt,Vanuatu_ancient,PrimorskyKrai_B oisman_MN,Peru_Laramate_900BP,Karelia_HG,IronGates _Meso1,Yamnaya_Samara,Ust_Ishim.DG
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