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Thread: Analysis of the Iberian R1b-DF27 haplogroup

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    Analysis of the Iberian R1b-DF27 haplogroup

    Article | OPEN

    Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ.
    Neus Solé-Morata, Patricia Villaescusa, Carla García-Fernández, Neus Font-Porterias, María José Illescas, Laura Valverde, Francesca Tassi, Silvia Ghirotto, Claude Férec, Karen Rouault, Susana Jiménez-Moreno, Begoña Martínez-Jarreta, Maria Fátima Pinheiro, María T. Zarrabeitia, Ángel Carracedo, Marian M. de Pancorbo & Francesc Calafell

    Abstract
    Haplogroup R1b-M269 comprises most Western European Y chromosomes; of its main branches, R1b-DF27 is by far the least known, and it appears to be highly prevalent only in Iberia. We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage and, in particular, to ascertain the time and place where it originated, as well as its subsequent dynamics. We found that R1b-DF27 is present in frequencies ~40% in Iberian populations and up to 70% in Basques, but it drops quickly to 6–20% in France. Overall, the age of R1b-DF27 is estimated at ~4,200 years ago, at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when the Y chromosome landscape of W Europe was thoroughly remodeled. In spite of its high frequency in Basques, Y-STR internal diversity of R1b-DF27 is lower there, and results in more recent age estimates; NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27. Subhaplogroup frequencies within R1b-DF27 are geographically structured, and show domains that are reminiscent of the pre-Roman Celtic/Iberian division, or of the medieval Christian kingdoms.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    . . . NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27 . . .
    That part is really ridiculous, given the results of Olalde et al and the fact that Bell Beaker man I0806 (2431-2150 BC) from Quedlinburg, Germany, was DF27. He's the one who was evidently bow-legged from spending so much time on horseback.

     


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    I swear when I saw paoloferrari post this in the "New Reports" thread, I could already hear your teeth grinding.


    You could hear mine grinding when I saw their overly-simplistic haplotree...

    P.S. -- nobody tell them where Mr. Amesbury is from.
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    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Article | OPEN

    Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ.
    I pretty much agree with this title, if only they had stopped there and let us guess at the methodology. But then:

    We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage
    In my opinion, that was their major shortcoming: not genotyping any R1b-DF27 chromosomes from the UK, the Low Countries, Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Ukraine, etc. The percentages in the total population (today) are less impressive, farther east -- but there is a lot of DF27 in the rest of the world. In some of those places it appears (from aDNA evidence, as well as from the stats in FTDNA projects, and other more broadly representative European ancestral pools) still to have been migrating westward, not having reached France or Iberia yet, around the time it separated from its brother U152.

    This is not the only recent paper reflecting the same sampling myopia. Some good things are coming out in these papers, but the origin of DF27 is not one of them.

    Edit: Here was my comment on the other one that springs to mind: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post181216
    Last edited by razyn; 08-04-2017 at 10:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    . . .

    This is not the only recent paper reflecting the same sampling myopia. Some good things are coming out in these papers, but the origin of DF27 is not one of them.
    Modern y-dna is so 2007. We have to depend on ancient y-dna, and that includes depending on it for the straight skinny on DF27, as well.
     


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    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Article | OPEN

    Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ.
    Neus Solé-Morata, Patricia Villaescusa, Carla García-Fernández, Neus Font-Porterias, María José Illescas, Laura Valverde, Francesca Tassi, Silvia Ghirotto, Claude Férec, Karen Rouault, Susana Jiménez-Moreno, Begoña Martínez-Jarreta, Maria Fátima Pinheiro, María T. Zarrabeitia, Ángel Carracedo, Marian M. de Pancorbo & Francesc Calafell

    Abstract
    Haplogroup R1b-M269 comprises most Western European Y chromosomes; of its main branches, R1b-DF27 is by far the least known, and it appears to be highly prevalent only in Iberia. We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage and, in particular, to ascertain the time and place where it originated, as well as its subsequent dynamics. We found that R1b-DF27 is present in frequencies ~40% in Iberian populations and up to 70% in Basques, but it drops quickly to 6–20% in France. Overall, the age of R1b-DF27 is estimated at ~4,200 years ago, at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when the Y chromosome landscape of W Europe was thoroughly remodeled. In spite of its high frequency in Basques, Y-STR internal diversity of R1b-DF27 is lower there, and results in more recent age estimates; NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27. Subhaplogroup frequencies within R1b-DF27 are geographically structured, and show domains that are reminiscent of the pre-Roman Celtic/Iberian division, or of the medieval Christian kingdoms.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x
    I respectfully disagree with these results as it pertains to dates and location. For one DF27 is probably closer to 5000 years before present. Iain McDonald's latest estimate was 3028 BC (3741 BC — 2423 BC), but we know it has to be older than 2550 BC as RISE563 (brother U152 sample), was dated to 2572-2512 BC. And the oldest DF27 ancient sample I0806, Quedlinburg (North Central Germany) was from the Bell Beaker culture and dated to 2431-2150 BC, midpoint 2240 BC.

    We know P312 is associated with eastern Bell Beaker going back to ~2500 BC and the ancient Bell Beaker samples had Steppe ancestry.

    In present day population (from almost 3000 non UK and non Irish European FTDNA R1b samples), DF27 has an above average percentage in the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain, and Portugal,
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...6ad2b3a768.png

    So it definitely has a Western European center of gravity in present day populations, but that doesn't in itself mean it originated in Iberia. Mr DF27, could have been born in the Steppes around ~3000 BC and he or his descendants could have moved into Central Europe soon there after. Or he could have been born in Central Europe and some of his descendants quickly spread to Western Europe and Iberia. Or he could have been born in Western Europe e.g. Germany, France, Low Countries.

    But one cannot definitively say DF27 originated in Iberia circa 2200 BC. It has to be older than that based on the above data, probably closer to 3000 BC or earlier. I don't think there is evidence the steppe men reached Iberia by 3000 BC

    The orthodox view of the proponents of the Kurgan theory is Yamnaya P312 moved up the Danube from near present day Ukraine ending up in the Carpathian Basin and having rapid growth in/near this area, obtaining a TRB/GAC like admixture along the way. Chad Rohlfsen mentioned
    GAC/TRB rooted in Lengyel, has been proposed. I think it makes sense. Lengyel does keep popping up in many runs.
    An alternate view is P312 or his ancestors took a more northerly route into GAC/TRB territory to the north of the Carpathians, before spreading south into Moravia and on to Carpathian Basin and West into Germany and Western Europe.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 08-04-2017 at 10:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    But one cannot definitively say DF27 originated in Iberia circa 2200 BC.
    That's really the issue. It could be accurate with a little change in the word order: DF27 in Iberia originated circa 2200 BC. But before that, it appears (from the best evidence we have to date) to have been elsewhere, doing stuff, founding lineages, etc. for most of another millennium.

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    I'm not surprised about the statements in the study since the authors include those from the previous studies that included DF27 and since the authors don't use YFull, Alex Williamson's tree, or posts from forums. Has anyone ever sent any of the authors an email with the updated results that Rocca was able to find in I0806?

    These are the previous studies that include DF27

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015114a.html
    New clues to the evolutionary history of the main European paternal lineage M: dissection of the Y-SNP S116 in Atlantic Europe and Iberia

    Laura Valverde, Maria José Illescas, Patricia Villaescusa, Amparo M Gotor, Ainara García, Sergio Cardoso, Jaime Algorta,, Susana Catarino, Karen Rouault, Claude Férec, Orla Hardiman, Maite Zarrabeitia, Susana Jiménez, Maria Fátima Pinheiro, Begoña M Jarreta, Jill Olofsson, Niels Morling and Marian M de Pancorbo


    http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigss.2015.09.172
    Dissection of the DF27 paternal lineage
    P. Villaescusa, L. Valverde, M.J. Illescas, M.M. de Pancorbo


    Although it has been pointed out that they haven't tested the Low Countries, Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Ukraine, etc in Valverde et al. 2015 they tested Denmark (n=174) and Ireland (n=146) and there was 0 DF27 in Denmark and 0.68% DF27 in Ireland. The Irish samples are included in this study as are the GBR (1000 genomes) and the TSI (1000 genomes). They could test hundreds of people in the Low Countries, Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Ukraine, etc and DF27 would still show to exist at a very low percentage in those regions. That would only strengthen their conclusion based on modern frequency of DF27. Just to clarify, I am not defending their conclusion.
    Last edited by ArmandoR1b; 08-05-2017 at 03:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    I'm not surprised about the statements in the study since the authors include those from the previous studies that included DF27 and since the authors don't use YFull, Alex Williamson's tree, or posts from forums. Has anyone ever sent any of the authors an email with the updated results that Rocca was able to find in I0806?

    These are the previous studies that include DF27

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015114a.html
    New clues to the evolutionary history of the main European paternal lineage M: dissection of the Y-SNP S116 in Atlantic Europe and Iberia

    Laura Valverde, Maria José Illescas, Patricia Villaescusa, Amparo M Gotor, Ainara García, Sergio Cardoso, Jaime Algorta,, Susana Catarino, Karen Rouault, Claude Férec, Orla Hardiman, Maite Zarrabeitia, Susana Jiménez, Maria Fátima Pinheiro, Begoña M Jarreta, Jill Olofsson, Niels Morling and Marian M de Pancorbo


    http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigss.2015.09.172
    Dissection of the DF27 paternal lineage
    P. Villaescusa, L. Valverde, M.J. Illescas, M.M. de Pancorbo


    Although it has been pointed out that they haven't tested the Low Countries, Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Ukraine, etc in Valverde et al. 2015 they tested Denmark (n=174) and Ireland (n=146) and there was 0 DF27 in Denmark and 0.68% DF27 in Ireland. The Irish samples are included in this study as are the GBR (1000 genomes) and the TSI (1000 genomes). They could test hundreds of people in the Low Countries, Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Ukraine, etc and DF27 would still show to exist at a very low percentage in those regions. That would only strengthen their conclusion based on modern frequency of DF27. Just to clarify, I am not defending their conclusion.
    FWIW in the FTDNA project data DF27 was ~10% of R1b in Denmark (5 out of 52 samples). I haven't filtered through the numbers to remove the duplicates/multiple kits to same MRCA/surnames yet but the raw numbers for Ireland are 113 DF27 out of 2687 R1b samples or ~4%.

    Busby and Myres had 91 samples in Denmark of which 40 were R1b or 44% R1b. That would translate my 10% of R1b to DF27 being around 4.4% of all haplogroups in Denmark
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 08-05-2017 at 03:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    in Valverde et al. 2015 they tested Denmark (n=174) and Ireland (n=146) and there was 0 DF27 in Denmark and 0.68% DF27 in Ireland.
    On the other hand, Mitchell's recently posted maps (based on self-reported ancestral data from FTDNA project participants) had 52 R1b samples from Denmark, and his associated pie chart for that country says 9% (I guess that's 5 out of 52, actually 9.6%) were DF27+. I don't know what percentage of the total male Danish population it would be, these 52 were only R1b guys; but it does include U106, the rest of P312, etc. Not R1a, G, I, and other popular haplogroups. If interested, look for the orange in these pie charts, it's easy to find. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...9055efe522.png

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