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Thread: U152/S28 in Bashkirs Revisted

  1. #1
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    U152/S28 in Bashkirs Revisted

    Baskirs: a Turkic people indigenous to Bashkortostan, extending on both sides of the Ural Mountains, in the area where Eastern Europe meets North Asia. Groups of Bashkirs also live in the Republic of Tatarstan, Perm Krai, Chelyabinsk, Orenburg, Tyumen, Sverdlovsk, Kurgan Oblasts and other regions of Russia, as well as in Kazakhstan and other countries.
    Back when discovered in the Myres et al study in 2011, U152 in the Baskir was a real oddity as it was located thousands of miles to the east of the majority of U152 in Western and Central Europe. The study didn't identify any U152 subclades.

    I remember reading a few years ago that U152 in the Baskir people was generally written off as a relatively recent event...due to a founder effect
    the loss of genetic variation that occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals from a larger population.
    Although I did note a similarity in the frequency of red hair maps in Europe and the location of Baskir territory I let it go and moved on.

    But I just noticed that in this FTDNA project https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    There are two U152+ men.
    312692 Salagush-Baylar Tatar Gubaydulla(XVII), Azalak at., Salagush-Baylar clan Russian Federation R-Z145
    209974 Baylar Bashkir Nagim(XIX), Kama river, Bashkortostan, Baylar clan Russian Federation R-L2

    Z145 is not a subclade of U152>L2. Rather it's a subclade of U152>Z56. L2 and Z56's shared ancestor probably lived 4500 to 5000 years ago, so a single source recent founder effect cannot explain U152 in the Baskir.

    The simple answer is that there was more than one recent event U152 founder....which will make this a really short thread.

    I also read one post about the possibility that U152 in the Baskir was introduced by the Goths
    Then I found this Bahadir’s (not any idea who he is but seems a Turkish speaker) comment with a Google translation ”(They found) in the tribe Gaina, who lives in the Perm region of Russia "Western European" subclade R1b-U152. This tribe before the migration to the South Urals (8-9 century) and the occurrence of the Bashkirs lived in the steppes near the Black and Azov Seas. Presumably, Gaina tribe - the descendants of the Goths. This is indicated by the name of the tribe "Gaina".This ethnonym was distributed among the Goths. So famous Gothic commander Gainas, who lived in the 5th century AD.

    So, could this Bashkir U152 have a Gothic origin?
    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...-ancestry.html

    Obviously there are plenty of explanations of how U152 could have ended up in Baskir men, but I am wondering if the fact that Z56 and L2 have been found in them merits a 2nd look.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 08-06-2017 at 04:30 PM.
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    I wish I could remember the details, but there was also a Kipchak guy who tested U152+ a few years back. I was actually the one who recruited him for testing via the old P312 Project when Rick Arnold and I were its admins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I wish I could remember the details, but there was also a Kipchak guy who tested U152+ a few years back. I was actually the one who recruited him for testing via the old P312 Project when Rick Arnold and I were its admins.
    Looks like he's still around in the U152 Project: Kit 121942.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I wish I could remember the details, but there was also a Kipchak guy who tested U152+ a few years back. I was actually the one who recruited him for testing via the old P312 Project when Rick Arnold and I were its admins.
    ms2:
    Maybe someone has commented on this already, but did you notice the sample in Busby from northeast of Ufa in the Russian Federation? It looks like the sample location is still in Bashkortostan in the Urals.

    It's the one at latitude 55.6 longitude 57 (entry #61) here (latitude and longitude are reversed in Busby's Excel chart):

    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.o...11044supp2.xls

    Anyway, out of a sample of 70, U152 was 71.4%!

    I am assuming those were Bashkirs.

    I know from the R-P312 and Subclades Project that there is also at least one Kipchak tribesman from Kazakhstan who is U152+ (R-L2, actually).

    So, what is the connection between U152 and Turkic-speaking peoples?

    Maliclavelli:
    Ask Anatole Klyosov, who thinks that we all R-something are Turks! Anyway we knew those Bashkirs, but the R-U152-s are pretty all of the same haplotype, then more than the origin of R, some R (I’d bet he was Italian) who passed his holidays there.

    Maliclavelli:
    Geneticists call it founder effect, we say “un gallo nel pollaio” (to be .... of the walk).

    MHammers:
    I think Myres found the variance to be relatively low with Baskkir U152. My guess is that they were "Europeans" who were "Turkicized" in the Dark-Middle ages. The Goths were in the Crimean/North Black sea region not too long before the Turks arrived and the Bashkirs possibly have an origin there before they settled around the Urals. Even Celtic speakers reached western Ukraine and Anatolia (with U152?), so I don't think any eastern U152 would be from actual Turks from the Altai region. The Kazakh seems to be an outlier, but also probably from a western source.

    rms2:
    It's more than a little odd. Even if it were just the Bashkirs, it would be strange, but add in the Kipchak fellow, and it is really weird. By the way, I am the one who recruited the Kipchak guy for testing originally, with the help of the head of the Kazakhstan DNA Project. I was hoping at the time he would be P312+, but his Deep Clade went a little further than that.
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us
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    There was always a rush to dismiss any eastern M269 as the product of a western European traveling salesman (or a Celt or a Goth, etc.). I guess that's still going on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    . . .

    Obviously there are plenty of explanations of how U152 could have ended up in Baskir men, but I am wondering if the fact that Z56 and L2 have been found in them merits a 2nd look.
    I think you are right, and that was an excellent catch. Sorry I detracted from it with my Kipchak memory.

    Back in 2011 or whenever it was, everyone (except me and maybe a couple of others) fell all over themselves in the rush to write off the Bashkir U152s as the result of some western European guy spending a wild weekend at Sandals, Bashkortostan.

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    I assume the Kazak man was 121942 Aseke M. (m) Kazak > KaraQypshaq>Tory>Alpeis>Tuishke>Dosym Kazakhstan R-L2
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I assume the Kazak man was 121942 Aseke M. (m) Kazak > KaraQypshaq>Tory>Alpeis>Tuishke>Dosym Kazakhstan R-L2
    That should be him. He was the only Kipchak I could find in the U152 Project. I forget his first name, but it was something like Mehmet (probably the Kipchak version of Mohammed, I assume).

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    Map showing previously mentioned Bashkir men and a third man in the FTDNA U152 who is in the U152>Z36 subclade. I believe he is of Russian origin rather than Bashkir.



    And the red hair map for reference...there may be no genetic connection

    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 08-06-2017 at 07:10 PM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
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    I believe it's the Udmurts that are responsible for the orange and red blotch on the map of the Russian Federation.

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