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Thread: 23andme 's new Paternal Haplogroup Report

  1. #1
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    23andme 's new Paternal Haplogroup Report

    I just noticed 23andme 's new Paternal Haplogroup Report, seems the report has been re-written completely, and is now in line with the Maternal Report, Which I quite like.

    However the concluding part for mine, says:-

    "Your paternal line descends from haplogroup R-M198, a lineage that is common in people of Ashkenazi Jewish descent.
    R-M512
    The origin of the Ashkenazi Jews has been traced back to a population of Jewish people living between the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea before the Roman exile. However, research suggests that Ashkenazi Jews who belong to your haplogroup may descend from a single male who introduced the R-M198 lineage into the Ashkenazi gene pool in the first millennium C.E. This man may have been a member of the Khazars, an enigmatic Turkic tribe that lived in Central Asia, and that converted to Judaism in the 8th century AD under King Bulan. Some research indicates that Eastern European Ashkenazi communities absorbed the Khazars after the fall of the Khazar kingdom in the 10th century AD."

    While I would not totally dismiss any Ashkenazi in my tree way way back, I am not aware of any, but also the same could be said for almost the whole of Eastern Europe?
    and also since this Haplogroup clade is way way upstream, how can they even link it to any populations? seems to me nonsensical.

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  3. #2
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    I hope you get an answer about R-M198. 23andMe has made a big improvement in its reports about Y-DNA J1 and mtDNA K, which used to lead everybody down the Ashkenazi path. So many people on the forums were misled by that, some to their delight and some to their distress.

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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by J1 DYS388=13 View Post
    I hope you get an answer about R-M198. 23andMe has made a big improvement in its reports about Y-DNA J1 and mtDNA K, which used to lead everybody down the Ashkenazi path. So many people on the forums were misled by that, some to their delight and some to their distress.
    Yeah, im waiting for the "ftdna R1a Backbone test", so that should provide some clarity.
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  6. #4
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    I really wish 23andMe wouldn't mislead people so much.

    The statement that "Your paternal line descends from haplogroup R-M198, a lineage that is common in people of Ashkenazi Jewish descent" has no real relevance to R-M417 itself. 23andMe isn't saying that if you're in R-417 you might be Ashkenazi, though that is evidently what some people infer.

    Look at the paragraph below 23andMe's statement about R-M198 and the Ashkenazi.

    The origin of the Ashkenazi Jews has been traced back to a population of Jewish people living between the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea before the Roman exile. However, research suggests that Ashkenazi Jews who belong to your haplogroup may descend from a single male who introduced the R-M198 lineage into the Ashkenazi gene pool in the first millennium C.E. This man may have been a member of the Khazars, an enigmatic Turkic tribe that lived in Central Asia, and that converted to Judaism in the 8th century AD under King Bulan. Some research indicates that Eastern European Ashkenazi communities absorbed the Khazars after the fall of the Khazar kingdom in the 10th century AD. https://you.23andme.com/reports/paternal_haplogroup/

    If R-M198 was introduced into the Ashkenazi genepool by just one man -- or even by a number of men from the same population -- that man (or those men) cannot be ancestral to anyone who is in R-417. Or rather, he can't be ancestral to them along the all-male line. The reason is very simple. The separation of R-M198 and R-M417 took place a very long time before the Khazar Kaganate ever came into being.

    I guess 23andMe couldn't find anything particularly interesting to saying about R-M417 as a whole, so instead they said something that pertains only to a tiny splinter of R-M417's parent haplogroup R-M198. Now if 23andMe had said that R-M417 were a common haplogroup among the Ashkenazi, that might mean something.

    Or it might not. Because there's also this issue. 23andMe's y-SNP testing is still woefully inadequate. While they now tell me I'm in R-M417, FTDNA places me in R-L1029. That's something like 8 subclades deeper (I'm not sure of the exact count).

    So if 23andMe had said something of note about R-M417, it still might not have any relevance to me. This would be true, for example, if it happened to be limited to a subset of those in R-M417 who either weren't in any deeper subclade, or were in a different subclade than own.

    EDIT: Looking back at the post that began this thread, I see R1a-Z283 as the OP's Y haplogroup designation. This is below R-M198 by three subclades -- so not quite as far as R-L1029. But even for R-M198, most in the haplogroup are not Ashkenazi.

    This is almost a variant of the "Jewish surname" theme. Just because a surname may be found among Jews doesn't make it a Jewish surname. I'm sure that there are Jews with the last name of Smith, but I really can't see someone deciding that Smith is a "Jewish name". Yet you can find people who seem to think that any surname ending in "-heim" must be Jewish.

    The fact is, when Jews began taking surnames -- typically because they were forced to -- they often adopted the same surnames as their neighbors used.

    But don't misunderstand me. I'd happily claim any Ashkenazi ancestor I could find, I just haven't found any yet; and 23andMe's statement about R-M198 doesn't lead me to think it's likely that I will. (My dearth of Ashkenazi relatives also doesn't give me much hope that I will.)
    Last edited by geebee; 08-07-2017 at 04:33 PM.
    Besides British-German-Catalan, ancestry includes smaller amounts of French, Irish, Swiss, Choctaw & another NA tribe, possibly Catawba. Avatar picture is: my father, his father, & his father's father; baby is my eldest brother.

    GB

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    It's also inherently misleading because it is only common among Ashkenazi Levites who are about 5% of Ashkenazi Y lineages.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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  10. #6
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    So they have no information for my sub clade. Here's the next one....M78..
    Also according to 23andme E-V12 is common among their customers, about 1 in 400. Which tells me they didn't test to see if I was E-V12*, because theirs no possible way my Haplogroup is that common.

    M78
    23,000
    Years Ago
    Origin and Migrations of Haplogroup E-M78

    Your paternal line stems from the common ancestor of haplogroup E-M78, a branch of E that dates back approximately 24,000 years. The earliest carriers of the E-M78 lineage likely lived in a population that moved from eastern Africa into northeastern Africa about 14,000 years ago, during the final days of the Ice Age. From northeastern Africa, their descendants expanded to the west between the Sahara and the Mediterranean coastline, and to the east out of Africa into the Middle East, where E-M78 men remain common.

    Today, men bearing this haplogroup are also common in southern Europe, including in the Balkans, Iberia, and Italy. In Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania, between 15% and 30% of men bear haplogroup E-M78. Their ancestors were likely relatively late arrivals to the region. While some branches of haplogroup E were carried into Europe nearly 8,000 years ago, recent research suggests that the major spread of E-M78 occurred in the last 5,000 years or so during the Bronze Age. Bronze Age cultures learned to smelt tin and copper to create beautiful and complex bronze items like hardier tools and weapons. They journeyed along river waterways in the Balkans and spread into east-central Europe. Today, men from Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, and Slovakia all carry E-M78 at levels of nearly 10%.

    While the majority of E-M78 European males trace their recent ancestry to Turkey and the Middle East, some men carrying E-M78 from Spain, Italy and Greece trace their ancestry directly from North African populations, probably within the last 4,000 years. The ancestors of these men must have sailed across the Mediterranean Sea and settled in communities along the European coast.
    DNA Tribes

    Balto - North Slavic 22.4%
    Northwest European 18.8%
    Italian Greek 18.1%
    Persian Jewish 9%
    Iberian 6.3%
    Ashkenazi Jewish 5.9%
    Basque 4.3%
    Sephardic Jewish 4.1%
    Balochi Punjab 3.7%
    Caucasus 2.5%
    Urals 1.3%
    Finnish 1.2%
    Lebanese Cypriot 1%
    Other 1.4%

    Sephardic Jewish Turkey 18.8%
    Argyll and Bute Scottish Highlands 18.6%
    Sardinia 18.4%
    Lithuania 15.7%
    Russia Voronezh 7%
    Belgium 5.6%
    Syrian Jewish 4.9%
    Libyan Jewish 4.4%
    Russia Tver 2.4%
    Azerbaijani Jewish 2.2%

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by geebee View Post
    I really wish 23andMe wouldn't mislead people so much.

    The statement that "Your paternal line descends from haplogroup R-M198, a lineage that is common in people of Ashkenazi Jewish descent" has no real relevance to R-M417.

    EDIT: Looking back at the post that began this thread, I see R1a-Z283 as the OP's Y haplogroup designation. This is below R-M198 by three subclades -- so not quite as far as R-L1029. But even for R-M198, most in the haplogroup are not Ashkenazi.

    This is almost a variant of the "Jewish surname" theme. Just because a surname may be found among Jews doesn't make it a Jewish surname. I'm sure that there are Jews with the last name of Smith, but I really can't see someone deciding that Smith is a "Jewish name". Yet you can find people who seem to think that any surname ending in "-heim" must be Jewish.

    The fact is, when Jews began taking surnames -- typically because they were forced to -- they often adopted the same surnames as their neighbors used.

    But don't misunderstand me. I'd happily claim any Ashkenazi ancestor I could find, I just haven't found any yet; and 23andMe's statement about R-M198 doesn't lead me to think it's likely that I will. (My dearth of Ashkenazi relatives also doesn't give me much hope that I will.)
    Just like to clarify that the R1a-Z283, was my latest result from LivingDNA, the OP is just about the 23andme Latest New Report. My YDNA here will keep changing the more And deeper I go into it, awaiting result of R1a backbone test from ftdna.
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  14. #8
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    This is my actual Haplogroup. 23andme didn't go far enough down, like FTDNA does. I was hoping I'd turn up E-M224 which is a Yemeni Israeli Haplogroup lol, I'm just an ancient Egyptian.

    Undifferentiated E-V12* lineages (not E-V32 or E-M224, so therefore named "E-V12*") peak in frequency among Southern Egyptians (upto 74.5%).
    DNA Tribes

    Balto - North Slavic 22.4%
    Northwest European 18.8%
    Italian Greek 18.1%
    Persian Jewish 9%
    Iberian 6.3%
    Ashkenazi Jewish 5.9%
    Basque 4.3%
    Sephardic Jewish 4.1%
    Balochi Punjab 3.7%
    Caucasus 2.5%
    Urals 1.3%
    Finnish 1.2%
    Lebanese Cypriot 1%
    Other 1.4%

    Sephardic Jewish Turkey 18.8%
    Argyll and Bute Scottish Highlands 18.6%
    Sardinia 18.4%
    Lithuania 15.7%
    Russia Voronezh 7%
    Belgium 5.6%
    Syrian Jewish 4.9%
    Libyan Jewish 4.4%
    Russia Tver 2.4%
    Azerbaijani Jewish 2.2%

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    For my marker , 23anme states it split from Kurds and Armenian lands ..........................but T project state it came from north-Iran and Turkmenistan , around ashmakat , where the iran mountains meet the plains of turkmenistan

    at least it is better than before as they stated me as haplogroup F


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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  18. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Just like to clarify that the R1a-Z283, was my latest result from LivingDNA, the OP is just about the 23andme Latest New Report. My YDNA here will keep changing the more And deeper I go into it, awaiting result of R1a backbone test from ftdna.
    My only point about your haplogroup is that even to the extent it's now tested (even by 23andMe), it's already beyond R-M198. 23andMe's reference to Ashkenazi only applies to R-M198, not any deeper subclades. And even at that, only a very tiny fraction of R-M198 consists of men who are Ashkenazi.

    That's why I dislike 23andMe's statement, because it gives people the impression of a connection which doesn't exist for them.
    Besides British-German-Catalan, ancestry includes smaller amounts of French, Irish, Swiss, Choctaw & another NA tribe, possibly Catawba. Avatar picture is: my father, his father, & his father's father; baby is my eldest brother.

    GB

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