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Thread: Hablogroup R-ZZ12_1

  1. #1
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    Brazil
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    Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-ZZ12_1
    mtDNA (M)
    W8

    Brazil Portugal Spain Italy

    Hablogroup R-ZZ12_1

    Dear colleagues,

    My Hablogroup changed from R-M269 to R-ZZ12_1. Is this Haplogroup 100% Iberian? The family tradition says that our ancestor passed from Spain to Portugal around 1580.

    Thank you.

  2. #2
    Registered Users
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    1,120
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    USA-NC
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    Caucasian
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    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2961>ZZ30>ZP106
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a4a1c1

    United States of America United States Tree Flag Bermuda United Kingdom France Italy
    It is downstream of R1b-P312>DF27. In today's populations DF27 has the highest geographic distribution in Iberia. Some members think it is related to the Franco-Cantabrian refugium, I suspect based on variance / diversity of DF27 in Europe.
    I suspect that you have recently had the M343 backbone test at FTDNA?
    check out: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-did-it-expand
    Also check out:
    http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=31
    at the bottom of the screen are country flags for donors that provided this information on their MDK(Y)Ancestor.
    dp :-)
    Last edited by dp; 08-19-2017 at 04:27 PM.
    Grace and good eure and long prosperitee. [Lydg. Mum. Goldsmiths]

    ysearch/mitosearch id: atr94 GENBANK/ENA mtDNA id: KF703542 member ISOGG

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to dp For This Useful Post:

     JPleskac (05-03-2018)

  4. #3
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    Logan, Utah
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    Europe, Italy, Mexico
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    Y-DNA (P)
    R-ZZ12_1
    mtDNA (M)
    Untested

    Italy 1861-1946 Mexico Germany Palatinate England
    After doing further Y-DNA testing, my haplogroup was also changed from R-M269 to R-ZZ12_1. While my exact line and surname is still unknown, I have been able to determine that my biological paternal line likely comes out of central Mexico. This could be consistent with an Iberian peninsula origin. However, my best Y-DNA match on FTDNA is a 37 marker match (genetic distance of 4) out of Ireland with the Bowes surname. I have relatively few Y-DNA matches with Iberian origins. Perhaps 95% of my Y-DNA matches come from the British Isles. I know this could all be explained by migration patterns, but it is still very frustrating when you are trying to nail down something definite and solve the mystery of your paternal origins.

  5. #4
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    Glasgow, Scotland
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    R1b-M222-FGC5864
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    H5r*

    Quote Originally Posted by stevesluder View Post
    After doing further Y-DNA testing, my haplogroup was also changed from R-M269 to R-ZZ12_1. While my exact line and surname is still unknown, I have been able to determine that my biological paternal line likely comes out of central Mexico. This could be consistent with an Iberian peninsula origin. However, my best Y-DNA match on FTDNA is a 37 marker match (genetic distance of 4) out of Ireland with the Bowes surname. I have relatively few Y-DNA matches with Iberian origins. Perhaps 95% of my Y-DNA matches come from the British Isles. I know this could all be explained by migration patterns, but it is still very frustrating when you are trying to nail down something definite and solve the mystery of your paternal origins.
    Has that person you mentioned confirmed the match with an equivalent SNP test? Otherwise +4/37 is pretty worthless imho.
    YSEQ:#37; YFull: YF01405 (Y Elite 2013)
    WGS (Full Genomes Nov 2015, YSEQ Feb 2019, Dante Mar 2019, FGC-10X Linked Reads Apr 2019, Dante-Nanopore May 2019, Chronomics Jan 2020, Sano Genetics Feb 2020, Nebula Genomics June 2020)
    Ancestry GCs: Scots in central Scotland & Ulster, Ireland; English in Yorkshire & Pennines
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    FBIMatch: A------ (autosomal DNA) for segment matching DO NOT POST ADMIXTURE REPORTS USING MY KIT

  6. #5
    Junior Member
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    Logan, Utah
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    Europe, Italy, Mexico
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    R-ZZ12_1
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    Untested

    Italy 1861-1946 Mexico Germany Palatinate England
    That one match is my only 37 marker match. I have no matches at 67 markers, but have done the SNP pack related to P312. That was when my haplogroup changed to ZZ12_1. I have 48, 25 marker matches with a genetic distance of 0. Again, every one of them are from the British Isles with English surnames. None of my matches on FTDNA are ZZ12_1 and I have only come across a few matches with this haplogroup in the past two years in other DNA websites.

  7. #6
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    Missouri, United States
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    various European
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    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-BY19442
    mtDNA (M)
    H3ac

    United States of America Ireland England Czech Republic France Scotland
    Have you joined the R-DF27 project?

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

    The admin of that project is very helpful (and also posts here, too); he should be able to provide some guidance about your Y-lineage.

  8. #7
    Registered Users
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    143
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    Location
    Madrid
    Ethnicity
    Celtiberian
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    Spain
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27>ZZ12_1>BY41285
    mtDNA (M)
    K1b1b1a

    Spain Castile and León Galicia
    Hi there, friend:
    .
    My case is quite similar than yours. My parent haplogroup was R-M269 and now reads R-ZZ12_1 downstream DF27 (that means 4.000 years back in time). In my particular case is linked to Scotland due to I have been tested positive under a valid recurrent mutation that reads ZS4583 (say about 1.000 years back in time) linked to Scottish clans still under investigation after my BIG Y results as negative for L513 what's strange. Checking the information of my matches under ZZ12_1 you can find them in: Acores, Northern area of Portugal, Basque country, french Bretagne, Normandie, South West of Germany, Switzerland, Poland, some areas in Italy and above all in Welsh and the Highlands in Scotland among other locations. That means ZZ12_1 it's widespread throughout the Western area of Europe in a lower scale than DF27. We are clearly celts. There are other snps that are specifically downstream DF27 that could be considered more iberians than ours. Anyway that's only my personal opinion as I am not an expert and on the other hand I am spanish and happy to be under this gallo-iberian haplogroup (DF27)

  9. #8
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    Magovalle:

    I am from Spain too. FTDNA's Big Y test said that I am P312+ and (like you) also ZS4583+. They did not test anything in between those two SNPs. This would normally imply that I am also positive for everything in between those two SNPs: P312 > Z290 > L21 > DF13 > L513 > S5668 > A7 > S5979 > S5982 > ZS4581 > ZS4584 > ZS4583. However, making such an assumption made me very nervous. Those are many, many SNPs between P312 and ZS4583, and I wondered if it might be possible for a crazy mutation to occur at the ZS4583 site, and make it SEEM like I am ZS4583+ when I am not. In other words, I could be in reality on a branch of the haplotree that is nowhere near the ZS4583 SNP, but my ZS4583 site could have mutated from the "ancestral value" (let's say that this was "T") to the value that the ZS4583 haplogroup has at the ZS4583 site (for instance, "C"). So my ZS4583 could have the same value ("C") as in ZS4583+ people, but it would be due to an INDEPENDENT MUTATION AT THE SAME SITE. In such case, I would come up as positive for ZS4583, but I should not really be classified as being in haplogroup ZS4583. (That was not a very good explanation, but I hope you understood it!)

    Also, the above sequence put me on a line that one would expect more for a British Isles person than for a Spaniard, although it would not be impossible. (In fact, it would be very interesting if it were true!) I felt that I should not simply "believe" that I am truly ZS4583+ and also positive for all the SNPs between P312 and ZS4583 based on that Big Y test, given the huge gap between P312 and ZS4583. Therefore, earlier today I ordered the "R1b - S5982&L193" SNP Pack from FTDNA. This will test all those intermediate SNPs between P312 and ZS4583, as well as a few more.

    After ordering that test, I stumbled upon this posting of yours, which confirms that my suspicion can sometimes turn out to be true: In your case, it did, since you tested positive for ZS4583 but negative for L513, which means that your ZS4583+ test was a "false positive". I suspect that the same thing will happen to me when I get the results of this last test. It's too bad, because having the British Isles pattern would have been very interesting!
    Last edited by Jesús Dapena; 03-17-2018 at 06:25 AM.

  10. #9
    Registered Users
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    Sevilla, Spain
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    Italo-Celtic
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    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>BY3485
    mtDNA (M)
    H65

    Italy Spain Andalucia
    Hello Jesús & Magovalle,

    What you are describing is known as recurrent mutation. That is, the same SNP is repeated in different branches of a main haplogroup.

    Regards

    David
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ BY4245+ BY3485+ BY3478+ , Giovanni Domenicus Rabai, b. 1609, Savona, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H65, María García Martínez, b. 1746, Cuenca, Spain

    Manuel David Rabaez 1974, Manuel Rabaez 1948, Manuel Rabaez 1912, Antonio Rabay 1868, Antonio Rabay 1833, Manuel Rabay 1791, Manuel Rabay 1764, Pedro Rabai 1727, Pedro Joseph Rabai 1691, Giovanni Battista Rabai 1647, Jo. Domenicus Rabai 1609, Pietrus Rabai (work in progress...)

  11. #10
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    Ravai:

    Aha! Excellent, I had never heard the term "recurrent mutation" before! I think this is an important cautionary tale when dealing with genetic genealogy ...

    Jesús

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