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Thread: My First Ancestor In Italy Was Most Likely A Phoenician Slave?

  1. #1
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    Exclamation My First Ancestor In Italy Was Most Likely A Phoenician Slave?

    This relates to J1 in Italy but I am specifically looking into my Haplogroup, J-L829. Honestly, I am very dissapointed with my results, in the past I was hoping I would be R1b but then I found out Haplogroup J is much older than R1b and associated with Sumeria so I didn't care for being Haplogroup R anymore, but to find out I am J-L829 just makes me feel a lot less Italian. Originally, I was hoping my first ancestor in Italy was Etruscan, Greek or a Neolithic Remnant but it all seems unlikely, all evidence points towards it being a Phonecian, great enemy of Rome which was destroyed by the Roman Republic.

    All possibilities point to this, whether he was a slave or not, he was most likely Phoenician, a non-Italian, non-Greek, non-Etruscan, basically a very foreign culture not associated with benefiting/developing Ancient Italy/Rome like Greeks and Etruscans were.

    "
    Agamemnon who is an expert in J1. "PF4872 is a branch of L858, its subclade L829 (TMRCA ~3500 years BP) is one of the best candidates for a Phoenician marker under J1 since it has been found in Lebanon (notably in an individual hailing from Dalhoun, a village in the jabal el chouf region not far from the coastline, itself part of a larger group of villages associated with the Phoenician city-state of Sidon), in Palestinian individuals originally hailing from Ashkelon, in an Israeli Druze sample and in Mediterranean areas normally associated with Phoenician and Punic settlement. PF4872 has also been found in Lebanon, Turkey, Greece and in a sample claiming affiliation to the Tayy' tribe (as well as in an Ashkenazi Jew from Lithuania), so an association with Phoenicians might not be circumscribed to its subclade L829. PF4872's TMRCA is ~4225 years old, this seemingly coincides with the emergence of proto-NW Semitic.""

    "
    L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon)."

    This is why I think my first ancestor in Italy was a Phonecian slave, he might have raped an Italian woman which essentially started my lineage in Italy, forgive me for being so vulgar but I am just thinking of the possibilities.

    "Aftermath[edit]

    Ruins of Carthage
    Many Carthaginians died from starvation during the later part of the siege, while many others died in the final six days of fighting. When the war ended, the remaining 50,000 Carthaginians, a small part of the original pre-war population, were sold into slavery by the victors.[4] Carthage was systematically burned for 17 days; the city's walls and buildings were utterly destroyed. The remaining Carthaginian territories were annexed by Rome and reconstituted to become the Roman province of Africa.
    "


    Is there any way I can know for certain? Tuscany is the core of Etruscan Civilization, Haplogroup J1 is only 2% in the sample from Tuscany on Eupedia but if any are J-L829 then perhaps my first ancestor in Italy could have been Etruscan.
    Last edited by Aradon; 08-22-2017 at 09:16 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    This relates to J1 in Italy but I am specifically looking into my Haplogroup, J-L829. Honestly, I am very dissapointed with my results, in the past I was hoping I would be R1b but then I found out Haplogroup J is much older than R1b and associated with Sumeria so I didn't care for being Haplogroup R anymore, but to find out I am J-L829 just makes me feel a lot less Italian. Originally, I was hoping my first ancestor in Italy was Etruscan, Greek or a Neolithic Remnant but it all seems unlikely, all evidence points towards it being a Phonecian, great enemy of Rome which was destroyed by the Roman Republic.

    All possibilities point to this, whether he was a slave or not, he was most likely Phoenician, a non-Italian, non-Greek, non-Etruscan, basically a very foreign culture not associated with benefiting/developing Ancient Italy/Rome like Greeks and Etruscans were.

    "
    Agamemnon who is an expert in J1. "PF4872 is a branch of L858, its subclade L829 (TMRCA ~3500 years BP) is one of the best candidates for a Phoenician marker under J1 since it has been found in Lebanon (notably in an individual hailing from Dalhoun, a village in the jabal el chouf region not far from the coastline, itself part of a larger group of villages associated with the Phoenician city-state of Sidon), in Palestinian individuals originally hailing from Ashkelon, in an Israeli Druze sample and in Mediterranean areas normally associated with Phoenician and Punic settlement. PF4872 has also been found in Lebanon, Turkey, Greece and in a sample claiming affiliation to the Tayy' tribe (as well as in an Ashkenazi Jew from Lithuania), so an association with Phoenicians might not be circumscribed to its subclade L829. PF4872's TMRCA is ~4225 years old, this seemingly coincides with the emergence of proto-NW Semitic.""

    "
    L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon)."

    This is why I think my first ancestor in Italy was a Phonecian slave, he might have raped an Italian woman which essentially started my lineage in Italy, forgive me for being so vulgar but I am just thinking of the possibilities.

    "Aftermath[edit]

    Ruins of Carthage
    Many Carthaginians died from starvation during the later part of the siege, while many others died in the final six days of fighting. When the war ended, the remaining 50,000 Carthaginians, a small part of the original pre-war population, were sold into slavery by the victors.[4] Carthage was systematically burned for 17 days; the city's walls and buildings were utterly destroyed. The remaining Carthaginian territories were annexed by Rome and reconstituted to become the Roman province of Africa.
    "


    Is there any way I can know for certain? Tuscany is the core of Etruscan Civilization, Haplogroup J1 is only 2% in the sample from Tuscany on Eupedia but if any are J-L829 then perhaps my first ancestor in Italy could have been Etruscan.
    You shouldn't be disappointed with your results but instead very proud after all this is your lineage and the Phoenicians were one of the most influential cultures in the ancient world its a shame Rome destroyed Carthage, they might not have had a direct influence on Rome but they definitely did with the Greeks and Etruscans, they gave the alphabet to the Greeks and were one if not the Etruscans closest trading partners and allies, there is a chance that your ancestor could of been a Phoenician merchant who settled in Etruria.

    Don't be too hard on yourself for this, and for the moment there is no definitive way to know unless an ancient dna sample with J-L829 appears, at the moment it looks your line is Phoenician in fact a very good candidate, instead of being a slave like I said could have been a merchant.

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    Anything is possible and frankly without the ancient DNA samples to back it up we can't know if J-L829 is Phoenician.

    As for you feeling less Italian, please don't. You have many more Italian ancestors than the one who contributed to your Y-line. Also please understand that your ancestors saw themselves as Italian and prior to that whatever other group they may have belonged to. I can sympathize with feeling "less" of the ethnic group you know your family to be related to. I grew up knowing my Y-line came from Scotland and my paper trail supports this however with a haplogroup like I1-Z140 (more specifically/likely I1-Y1798) it seems I have some relation to the Germanic peoples of Europe. For awhile I certainly felt fairly disconnected, but I have since realized that there are countless possibilities that could have resulted in my possibly Germanic ancestor or his descendants ending up in Scotland and adopting a Scottish surname.

    To quote our very own A Norfolk L-M20: (of course replace English and other English locales to Italian)

    Quote Originally Posted by A Norfolk L-M20 View Post
    As I'm sure that you know, ethnicity is all about how you, your family, and your community both self identify, and are identified by others. Cultural, religious, ancestry, caste, class, and / or nationality. How would I be identified? Pretty clearly as white ethnic English, of local East Anglian rural working class roots. My documentary and family history genealogical trail strongly confirms that, although using it, I can reach out to a few areas of Southern England outside of East Anglia, such as on my paternal great grandfather's line to the Thames Valley of Oxfordshire. That doesn't though change my Norfolk accent, or identification with my seven other Norfolk great grandparents.

    What does DNA tell me then? It can't change my ethnicity.

    Autosomal DNA has proven to be a pretty useless indicator of ancestry over the past three or four hundred years. it can't identify us SE English, and can't part me from some French, Belgian, or Dutch for example. It usually sees my Britishness as only around 35%. That's because DNA for Ancestry companies exaggerate their abilities at discriminating between recent family admixture, and much older population admixture. Fine for some populations, but not so much for populations known to be admixed in late prehistory or the medieval. I suppose that one thing that auDNA tests have suggested to me, is that we SE English have a bit of a pull to France and the South, rather than to Scandinavia. It makes me ponder that.

    Y-DNA, I've had a ball chasing my L-SK1414 around Western Asia, and it triggers my imagination that I had a Y ancestor that moved from Asia to Southern England sometime perhaps during the Medieval. But I can't seriously regard myself as Persian, Gedrosian, or Mesopotamian based on that can I? great for the imagination, but, even my autosomes say no Asian call. It was some time ago. Okay, it gives me a slight affinity, and new histories and prehistories to study, with a possible personal touch.

    What about mtDNA? Again, I don't really feel that I'm a Copper Age Steppe Pastoralist, but sure it triggers imagination of distant mt ancestors heading westwards, outnumbered by their men.

    As for Genetic Matches, My mt I'm currently waiting for full sequence results. My Y - yes, I've met some great distant Y cousins, but we are all 1,000 to 18,000 years apart! My auDNA - would you believe this weekend, I've had my first ever match, on FT-DNA FF, to an Australian priest, who has a correlating documentary family tree, showing him to be my third cousin once removed. My first DNA match! Otherwise, my family never seemed to mix with other people's! Even my Wiki-Tree is alone.

    Someone asked about Harrington. No, my Margaret Harrington lived in Acle, Norfolk. She died there in 1808. Extremely unlikely to link to Somerset. Sorry, it's usually the same story :-(

    I'm English. However, proud to be a member of the Global Human Family. All DNA is fascinating, but haplogroups are still FAR truer than auDNA tests for ancestry in my humble opinion.

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    Nobody can guess about the precise social status os an ancestor 1000 or 2000 years ago. Warlords can easily produce slaveholders and then produce slaves and they can be tranformed in peaceful farmers for the next 600 years in the same rural area. We don't know how many of the existing mtDNA lines were the product of rape, slavery, serfdom or consensual marriages in the last 2000 years not to talk about more remote ages. They were lucky because they survived to the present. What we can do is to find the frequency, the location, the STR variaton, the trail of SNPs and the distribution of DNA in time and space. We can observe several ancient Sardinian J1-L829 lines and probably they are among some of the oldest "Italian" clusters already researched. As in any other ethnicity people are just trying to understand the size, variation and history of every ethnohistorical haplogroup in every society. So your ancestor could be a peaceful trader, a colonist, a mercenary, a slave, just like the ancestor of everyone here from any other haplogroup.
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    You should not be ashamed of your haplogroup. For one, many people in Sicily have Phoenician ancestry if you go back far enough. Also, Phoenicians were the first culture to have a written alphabet, and without it, the Greek alphabet would not exist. Phoenician culture significantly influenced Greek and Roman, even if they were enemies.

    Additionally, I am assuming you are Christian: Phoenicians were very close to the original Jewish people, if not the same ethnicity as them. Hebrew and Phoenician were mutually intelligible, if not dialects of the same language. When you read the Bible and hear of any of the famous people within it, you can know you may be descended from people very close to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    You shouldn't be disappointed with your results but instead very proud after all this is your lineage and the Phoenicians were one of the most influential cultures in the ancient world its a shame Rome destroyed Carthage, they might not have had a direct influence on Rome but they definitely did with the Greeks and Etruscans, they gave the alphabet to the Greeks and were one if not the Etruscans closest trading partners and allies, there is a chance that your ancestor could of been a Phoenician merchant who settled in Etruria.

    Don't be too hard on yourself for this, and for the moment there is no definitive way to know unless an ancient dna sample with J-L829 appears, at the moment it looks your line is Phoenician in fact a very good candidate, instead of being a slave like I said could have been a merchant.
    50,000 Phoenicians enslaved after Carthage destroyed with the rest of the population exterminated, I doubt he was a merchant, doubt there was ever even close to 50,000 Phoenicians living in Italy, due to the numbers, the strongest possibility is he was a slave. The Merchant possibility is highly unlikely and it looks like I am at a brick wall, there is no avoiding this conclusion, my first ancestor in Italy was Phoenician and most likely a slave. Such disappointing results, J1 is only 3% in Italy over all and I could not get J2 or a Euro variant of J1, I just had to get this Phoenician marker. The fact that it is present in Lebanon is further proof since Lebanese have significant Phoenician ancestry.

    I need to find out the J1e subtypes in Tuscany, desperately hoping there is a possibility that my first ancestor could be Etruscan or maybe Greek but I don't think I will ever find out in my life, the strongest possibility is Phoenician. J-L829 has been found in Malta and Sardinia but the Phoenicians did occupy most of Sardinia for a long time. Don't know if J-L829 has been found in Greece but the sample on Eupedia shows J/J1 is 3% in Greece overall.

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    Paolo Francalacci found several Sardinian J1-L829 3000 ybp branches, genogenea.com/J-M267/tree so I think it's very rare to find an exclusive ethnonational cluster with 3000 years in any European modern country continuously living there, so you can try to find your SNPs via NGS tests like Big Y or FGC and you probably belong to an ancient "Italian" group because it's not common to find a 3000 year old cluster living in the same region with several distinct sub-branches with that age. You have the social status of your last 500 years old ancestors and not from unknown 3000 years old ancestors
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    50,000 Phoenicians enslaved after Carthage destroyed with the rest of the population exterminated, I doubt he was a merchant, doubt there was ever even close to 50,000 Phoenicians living in Italy, due to the numbers, the strongest possibility is he was a slave. The Merchant possibility is highly unlikely and it looks like I am at a brick wall, there is no avoiding this conclusion, my first ancestor in Italy was Phoenician and most likely a slave. Such disappointing results, J1 is only 3% in Italy over all and I could not get J2 or a Euro variant of J1, I just had to get this Phoenician marker. The fact that it is present in Lebanon is further proof since Lebanese have significant Phoenician ancestry.

    I need to find out the J1e subtypes in Tuscany, desperately hoping there is a possibility that my first ancestor could be Etruscan or maybe Greek but I don't think I will ever find out in my life, the strongest possibility is Phoenician. J-L829 has been found in Malta and Sardinia but the Phoenicians did occupy most of Sardinia for a long time. Don't know if J-L829 has been found in Greece but the sample on Eupedia shows J/J1 is 3% in Greece overall.
    It's not disappointing. There is nothing you can do to change your history or ancestry. The Phoenicians are a fascinating people and part of the patchwork that contributed to the history of the Mediterranean and their influence extends much beyond even that. Even if your ancestor was a Phoenician who was taken as a slave, obviously his descendants did not remain as slaves and overtime through intermarriage with the local population became Roman and later Italian. I certainly know how you feel about your paternal line not "fitting" properly with what you anticipated. What our ancestors saw themselves 1000s of years ago is not the same as how they saw themselves 300 or even 100 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Paolo Francalacci found several Sardinian J1-L829 3000 ybp branches, genogenea.com/J-M267/tree so I think it's very rare to find an exclusive ethnonational cluster with 3000 years in any European modern country continuously living there, so you can try to find your SNPs via NGS tests like Big Y or FGC and you probably belong to an ancient "Italian" group because it's not common to find a 3000 year old cluster living in the same region with several distinct sub-branches with that age. You have the social status of your last 500 years old ancestors and not from unknown 3000 years old ancestors
    I echo everything RCO has said here. Anything is possible and frankly we're dealing with haplogroups here, which often predate "ethnic" groups or what we in our modern view see as ethnic groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    50,000 Phoenicians enslaved after Carthage destroyed with the rest of the population exterminated, I doubt he was a merchant, doubt there was ever even close to 50,000 Phoenicians living in Italy, due to the numbers, the strongest possibility is he was a slave. The Merchant possibility is highly unlikely and it looks like I am at a brick wall, there is no avoiding this conclusion, my first ancestor in Italy was Phoenician and most likely a slave. Such disappointing results, J1 is only 3% in Italy over all and I could not get J2 or a Euro variant of J1, I just had to get this Phoenician marker. The fact that it is present in Lebanon is further proof since Lebanese have significant Phoenician ancestry.

    I need to find out the J1e subtypes in Tuscany, desperately hoping there is a possibility that my first ancestor could be Etruscan or maybe Greek but I don't think I will ever find out in my life, the strongest possibility is Phoenician. J-L829 has been found in Malta and Sardinia but the Phoenicians did occupy most of Sardinia for a long time. Don't know if J-L829 has been found in Greece but the sample on Eupedia shows J/J1 is 3% in Greece overall.
    No avoiding this conclusion? People here have outlined many alternate possibilities. DNA can't tell you anything about a particular ancestor's social standing.

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  16. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    50,000 Phoenicians enslaved after Carthage destroyed with the rest of the population exterminated, I doubt he was a merchant, doubt there was ever even close to 50,000 Phoenicians living in Italy, due to the numbers, the strongest possibility is he was a slave. The Merchant possibility is highly unlikely and it looks like I am at a brick wall, there is no avoiding this conclusion, my first ancestor in Italy was Phoenician and most likely a slave. Such disappointing results, J1 is only 3% in Italy over all and I could not get J2 or a Euro variant of J1, I just had to get this Phoenician marker. The fact that it is present in Lebanon is further proof since Lebanese have significant Phoenician ancestry.

    I need to find out the J1e subtypes in Tuscany, desperately hoping there is a possibility that my first ancestor could be Etruscan or maybe Greek but I don't think I will ever find out in my life, the strongest possibility is Phoenician. J-L829 has been found in Malta and Sardinia but the Phoenicians did occupy most of Sardinia for a long time. Don't know if J-L829 has been found in Greece but the sample on Eupedia shows J/J1 is 3% in Greece overall.
    Phoenicians had much earlier contact with the Italian peninsula than the slaves of the Carthage. The TMRCA of J-L829 suggests that it came earlier into Europe roughly around the time that the Phoenicians were their prime with their vast trading network. There was 3 Phoenician colonies in Sicily and a known Phoenician quarter on the island of Ischia, Phoenicians very likely lived in the Etruscan and Greek cities in Italy, and as you said also Sardegna had Phoenician colonies and was later controlled by Carthage. If the TMRCA of J-L829 was around 2200 ybp than I would say its more likely that your ancestor was a slave, I would really reconsider the merchant possibility because it looks very considering the TMRCA. It isn't a disappointing result at all, I would suggest reading up on the history of the Phoenicians and the vital role they played in human history. Your line could be older in Italy than the Greek colonization, as I see this is a concern to you, like I said before dont be too hard on yourself. J1 in the South is anywhere from 5-8%, even majority of J2 is Middle Eastern technically as the real migration of J2 in Europe would have started sometime in the Middle-Late Bronze Age, and p.s. Lebanon has more J2 than J1.

    Even the Etruscans themselves are very likely (for me 100%) Middle Eastern in origin, their language, religion and some of the Y we see in Tuscany show that the Etruscans at one point originally lived somewhere in Eastern Turkey and had close ties with the Semitic world based on some key loan words. There is the possibility that your line could have been Etruscan. I doubt Greek, where is your paternal side from in Italy?

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