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Thread: My First Ancestor In Italy Was Most Likely A Phoenician Slave?

  1. #21
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    As an ethnic German citizen of Hungary your disappointment amuses me. Sure we all have a theory of our ancestry (of course I expexted myself to be R1b rather than J1 - zs3128), but finding out anything about the actual truth should rather be fascinating for you as well. Self identity is a difficult construct, and sure these results might challange it, but being Italian being "Roman" (whatever it might mean) are overrated constructions of national identity. I'd propose rather to think about, and define your ancestral identity, without the half thruths and deceptions of politically constructed ones.

    And if nothing else: dozens of generations lie between you and your ancestor with thousands contributing to who you are and how you look right now.. What would it change to belong to R or any other haplogroup?

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berengar View Post
    As an ethnic German citizen of Hungary your disappointment amuses me. Sure we all have a theory of our ancestry (of course I expexted myself to be R1b rather than J1 - zs3128), but finding out anything about the actual truth should rather be fascinating for you as well. Self identity is a difficult construct, and sure these results might challange it, but being Italian being "Roman" (whatever it might mean) are overrated constructions of national identity. I'd propose rather to think about, and define your ancestral identity, without the half thruths and deceptions of politically constructed ones.

    And if nothing else: dozens of generations lie between you and your ancestor with thousands contributing to who you are and how you look right now.. What would it change to belong to R or any other haplogroup?

    I agree and personally I take issue with the notion of Italian being defined as Roman. Romans never displaced the natives of any part of Italy. North Italians were traditionally Gauls, and southern Italy was a melting pot of people from all over Southern Europe, the Middle East, and Anatolia. Why should we all just have to be "Roman"?

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    They are from Vallelonga in Calabria. I just really wanted him to be Etruscan then, I don't care if they are middleeastern in origin because Etruscans had a large part in Romes development, even though they owned the Romans for a while and had conflicts with them, eventually they were absorbed into the Roman Republic and had direct influence on developing Rome itself when they oppressed and ruled the Romans with the Etruscan kings of Rome.
    Why didn't you tell us earlier? I was under the impression your ancestors came from Tuscany. Your results are anything but unusual, as J1 is far more common in the south than the north. Furthermore, there is another J1-L829 case from the province of Reggio Calabria, this individual is part of the Muscat cluster under PF4852 and is related to another individual from Malta who also bears the same surname (Muscat). None of this changes the fact that L829 arrived in all likelihood with the Phoenicians.

    Is there any way to find out the most common ancestor of J-L829? Looking at the J1 tree on eupedia, the ancestor of J-L829 is J-L858 and it says 5000 years before present.
    L829's TMRCA is around 3,000 years old, this corresponds neatly with the expansion of Phoenician colonists throughout the Mediterranean.

    Still , there is no way I can know for certain if he was a slave or not but it looks like him being Greek or a Neolithic Remnant possibility is out the window, I doubt he was etruscan to. He was a Phoenician non-Italian, I doubt Phoenicians were ever looked upon positively in Ancient Italy, it really angers me how I could such a rare clade, not even a European variant of J1 but European or not doesn't bother me, if he was Etruscan I would be happy but he most likely isn't.
    J1 is unlikely to have been a major Greek marker, much less a prominent one during the Neolithic period in Europe, and I'm not even talking about L829 which most assuredly is a typically SW Asian branch of J1-L858 associated with Semitic-speaking populations (like most branches of J1-L862 for that matter). You make it sound as if Ancient Italy was some sort of monolith, the truth is that pre-Roman Italy was a very diverse place (in many ways, it still is), the Campanians, Samnites, Bruttii, Lucani, Cisalpine Gauls and Italiotes all ganged up on Rome with Hannibal for example, just read about the Pyrgi tablets I mentionned earlier, we know of at least one temple dedicated to a Phoenician deity in the Etruscan city of Caisra, that's hardly what I'd describe as animosity. Either way I really don't know why you're so obsessed with the Etruscans, they weren't anywhere near Calabria, if anything you're bound to have a lot of Greek ancestry instead.

    Anything I can do to find out more? Buy some SNP service thing?
    Test with FTDNA and join the J1 project, or test with Full Genomes Corp.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 08-25-2017 at 01:32 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Why didn't you tell us earlier? I was under the impression your ancestors came from Tuscany. Your results are anything but unusual, as J1 is far more common in the south than the north. Furthermore, there is another J1-L829 case from the province of Reggio Calabria, this individual is part of the Muscat cluster under PF4852 and is related to another individual from Malta who also bears the same surname (Muscat). None of this changes the fact that L829 arrived in all likelihood with the Phoenicians.



    L829's TMRCA is around 3,000 years old, this corresponds neatly with the expansion of Phoenician colonists throughout the Mediterranean.



    J1 is unlikely to have been a major Greek marker, much less a prominent one during the Neolithic period in Europe, and I'm not even talking about L829 which most assuredly is a typically SW Asian branch of J1-L858 associated with Semitic-speaking populations (like most branches of J1-L862 for that matter). You make it sound as if Ancient Italy was some sort of monolith, the truth is that pre-Roman Italy was a very diverse place (in many ways, it still is), the Campanians, Samnites, Bruttii, Lucani, Cisalpine Gauls and Italiotes all ganged up on Rome with Hannibal for example, just read about the Pyrgi tablets I mentionned earlier, we know of at least one temple dedicated to a Phoenician deity in the Etruscan city of Caisra, that's hardly what I'd describe as animosity. Either way I really don't know why you're so obsessed with the Etruscans, they weren't anywhere near Calabria, if anything you're bound to have a lot of Greek ancestry instead.



    Test with FTDNA and join the J1 project, or test with Full Genomes Corp.
    It is pointless, he was most likely a Phoenician slave, it doesn't matter, the Cultures of the Mediterranean were inter-connected but the non-Eurpoean ones were always major enemies. Italy was united under the Roman Republic which was united against the Phoenicians, of course there was a lot of war to unite Italy and the only true Roma were those from Lazio or Rome itself. All the Cultures in Italy were similar at the time, not a foreign North African one like Phoenicia. Doubt there would ever be a way for me to find out if he was a slave or not. It is just frustrating not being certain, I wish I was J2 or at least a European variant of J1, then I would have no doubt on who my first ancestor was because he would most likely not have been a slave.
    Last edited by Aradon; 08-25-2017 at 09:10 PM.

  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    It is pointless, he was most likely a Phoenician slave, it doesn't matter, the Cultures of the Mediterranean were inter-connected but the non-Eurpoean ones were always major enemies. Italy was united under the Roman Republic which was united against the Phoenicians, of course there was a lot of war to unite Italy and the only the only true Roman was tthose from Lazio or Rome itself. All the Cultures in Italy were similar at the time, not a foreign North African one like Phoenicia. Doubt there would ever be a way for me to find out if he was a slave or not. It is just frustrating not being certain, I wish I was J2 or at least a European variant of J1, then I would have no doubt on who my first ancestor was because he would most likely not have been a slave.
    You make it sound like it's the worst thing in the world to have this haplogroup. It is what it is. Perhaps your distant paternal ancestor was a Phoenician who settled in the southern colonies of the Phoenician trade network and his descendants made their way to Calabria. Genetic testing will always reveal surprises in one way or another and it's healthier to overcome and embrace these surprises and try to learn more.

    Why are you so bent on the idea that your ancestor was a slave? Perhaps he was, perhaps he wasn't there is no way of knowing his social standing. There is just as much a chance that he was a merchent, leader, warrior, slave, peasant or what have you.

    Everything Agamemnon is saying is spot on and filled with a good dose of information from which you can do further research.

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    It is pointless, he was most likely a Phoenician slave, it doesn't matter, the Cultures of the Mediterranean were inter-connected but the non-Eurpoean ones were always major enemies. Italy was united under the Roman Republic which was united against the Phoenicians, of course there was a lot of war to unite Italy and the only the only true Roman was tthose from Lazio or Rome itself. All the Cultures in Italy were similar at the time, not a foreign North African one like Phoenicia. Doubt there would ever be a way for me to find out if he was a slave or not. It is just frustrating not being certain, I wish I was J2 or at least a European variant of J1, then I would have no doubt on who my first ancestor was because he would most likely not have been a slave.
    Why did you open this thread? I mean, if you're not going to bother with what we tell you and keep repeating the same platitudes, it would've been better for you to remain on The Apricity (where "Euros vs non-Euros" is a valid starting point when discussing history). I sincerely fail to see the purpose of this thread, unless you're just trying to troll, in which case I very much doubt the mods will tolerate that kind of behaviour.

    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Why are you so bent on the idea that your ancestor was a slave? Perhaps he was, perhaps he wasn't there is no way of knowing his social standing. There is just as much a chance that he was a merchent, leader, warrior, slave, peasant or what have you.
    I strongly suspect he's from The Apricity, an "anthroboard" where everything "non-European" is automatically associated with slavery, inferiority and what have you.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 08-25-2017 at 02:31 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Why did you open this thread? I mean, if you're not going to bother with what we tell you and keep repeating the same platitudes, it would've been better for you to remain on The Apricity (where "Euros vs non-Euros" is a valid starting point when discussing history). I sincerely fail to see the purpose of this thread, unless you're just trying to troll, in which case I very much doubt the mods will tolerate that kind of behaviour.



    I strongly suspect he's from The Apricity, an "anthroboard" where everything "non-European" is automatically associated with slavery, inferiority and what have you.
    I opened this thread because I think this is the most serious site for ancestral genetics which has the most experts.

    I am not trying to troll, this is really my haplogroup. The main reason I am disappointed is because I am half Italian, Ancient Greeks, Etruscans, Italics/Latins in Lazio all had presence in developing mainland Italy and Greek/Etruscan/Roman Itallic Culture defined the Roman Republic/Empire, this is why I wanted my first ancestor to be one of these groups. I am simply bent on believing my first ancestor was a slave because 50,000 Carthaginians were enslaved after the Romans destroyed Carthage, the rest of the population was exterminated. The high numbers convinces me that he was probably a slave, I simply doubt there was even close to 50,000 colonists from Phoenicia in Ancient Italy on the mainland but perhaps there was more than 50,000 in Sicily.

    Do you think there were more than 50,000 Phoenician colonists in mainland Sicily back then? Perhaps if any J-L829 is found in Sicily then I can compare my haplogroup, are there any sub-markers that would determine if it is the same one? I am not a ancestral genetics expert but I think I would need a SNP analysis or something.

    Also, J-L829 was in Italy before the destruction of Carthage right? I am pretty sure it was so perhaps that makes it for certain that he wasn't a slave. He was probably a Phoenician man who was living in Sicily, the Phoenicians in Sicily conquered by the Roman Republic probably assimilated, perhaps he was a Merchant who migrated to Calabria during the Roman Republic. That is a better outcome but still, I feel less Italian because by comparison, Phoenician Culture is very foreign and alien to the Itallic Roman/Etruscan and Greek Cultures. Even if he was a Merchant, he was probably discriminated against and seen as a foreigner.

    Don't some genetic testing sites have a map of your lineage? Like where your Y-DNA male ancestors all went to, like a line showing it all. Doubt I can find out with that since it probably isn't accurate.
    Last edited by Aradon; 08-25-2017 at 09:42 PM.

  13. #28
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    I believe you may be referencing something like this? https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/...12_17_2015.png

    You need to stop making assumptions about this possible ancestor and how he was treated as it cannot be known what his social status was. We can theorize and ponder various possibilities but in the end it doesn't result in any definite facts. It is fun to theorize though and I am guilty of it myself with my Y-line.

    Please be aware that you are still "half Italian" as you have hundreds more Italian ancestors than just the one man who contributed to your Y-DNA. You share very little in common with this man at this point anyway.

    Perhaps looking at the Mediterranean region as a highway for movement it might be easier to see how people of various groups were in contact with each other which eventually can lead to genetic similarities and "cross-pollenization" between ethnic groups.

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batroun View Post
    I was surprised to see that I received J1 as well, I thought I would be of J2 lineage which is typical of most Lebanese and East Med people, however one shouldn't be disappointed. Honestly Paternal lineages don't mean much, it's just how science is. Imo its the admixture that's the most interesting and plays a bigger "role" in identity. Italians of various groups might have been indifferent to how they viewed the Phoenicians. They traded with them and exchanged ideas. Let's not forget though the Etruscans and the Carthaginian-Phoenicians were allied to each other against the Greeks(battle of alaila) and later on the Romans.

    Anyways, a question for all, how does one find out which subclade they belong to?
    Have you tested with ftdna? If you have, right now they have specials if you want the best test to see the detailed results of your Y line I would suggest Big Y, it is quite expensive, but like I said in another thread it's an investment, if your just looking to see what subclade you belong too, I would suggest an J1 snp pack, hope this helps!

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    They are from Vallelonga in Calabria. I just really wanted him to be Etruscan then, I don't care if they are middleeastern in origin because Etruscans had a large part in Romes development, even though they owned the Romans for a while and had conflicts with them, eventually they were absorbed into the Roman Republic and had direct influence on developing Rome itself when they oppressed and ruled the Romans with the Etruscan kings of Rome.

    Is there any way to find out the most common ancestor of J-L829? Looking at the J1 tree on eupedia, the ancestor of J-L829 is J-L858 and it says 5000 years before present.

    Still , there is no way I can know for certain if he was a slave or not but it looks like him being Greek or a Neolithic Remnant possibility is out the window, I doubt he was etruscan to. He was a Phoenician non-Italian, I doubt Phoenicians were ever looked upon positively in Ancient Italy, it really angers me how I could such a rare clade, not even a European variant of J1 but European or not doesn't bother me, if he was Etruscan I would be happy but he most likely isn't.

    Anything I can do to find out more? Buy some SNP service thing?
    To your last question, since there is no new subclades under J-L829 the only possible way to go is Big Y for you, as I answered Batroun it is an investment.

    I can't tell you anymore, I offered my opinion to you, its your choice to take or leave it, as many others here offered very similar advice, its better not to be stubborn about your results but instead be happy, having a Phoenician ancestor is actually a very good thing in my opinion. Seriously speaking the Romans were pretty savage and had barely any impact on Southern Italian DNA.

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