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Thread: My First Ancestor In Italy Was Most Likely A Phoenician Slave?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasusphm1 View Post
    Italian names show Jewish ancestry...

    Here's another topic needs to be discussed. Rabbi Barbara Aiello team of researchers have discovered many Ultra-Christian sounding names, had actually been Jews who converted, selecting these names to avoid Spanish Inquisition. A number of trade names, also De and Di. Youtube video Italian Jewish Name Game from Aiello.. You find the exact same examples among Palestinians with Jewish sounding surnames, that's been well established. Could some of the PF4869 be Spanish not Italian? Jews fled Spain for Sicily and Italy, then pushed out again went into the Balkins.

    Just something I wanted to mention to keep at the back ones mind.
    It is possible but I don't know, researching all of these individual haplogroup subtypes is exhausting enough.
    Last edited by Aradon; 10-26-2017 at 03:06 PM.

  2. #62
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    J-L829

    Quote Originally Posted by Batroun View Post
    We have the same haplogroup!
    I am PF4872 , yours isn't on here.


  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    From a genetic point of view, they're basically like Cypriots (they are more genetically outlying than Cretans or Sicilians). It could be either because of a large assimilated Jewish population there in the last 1000 years, or because unlike other places there has been little Norman, Lombard, or Slavic influence.
    LOL, thanks. I was wondering where this line came from on my population sharing breakdowns. My Calabresi ancestors are rumored to have come from the Balkans at one time. I figure this lone Cypriot label is "ancient".


    86.5% Orcadian (HGDP) + 13.5% Cypriots (Behar) @ 0.62

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    LOL, thanks. I was wondering where this line came from on my population sharing breakdowns. My Calabresi ancestors are rumored to have come from the Balkans at one time. I figure this lone Cypriot label is "ancient".


    86.5% Orcadian (HGDP) + 13.5% Cypriots (Behar) @ 0.62
    Perhaps given the dating of PF4869 / L829 should consider earlier expansion related to Bronze age maritime peoples.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Anything is possible and frankly without the ancient DNA samples to back it up we can't know if J-L829 is Phoenician.

    As for you feeling less Italian, please don't. You have many more Italian ancestors than the one who contributed to your Y-line. Also please understand that your ancestors saw themselves as Italian and prior to that whatever other group they may have belonged to. I can sympathize with feeling "less" of the ethnic group you know your family to be related to. I grew up knowing my Y-line came from Scotland and my paper trail supports this however with a haplogroup like I1-Z140 (more specifically/likely I1-Y1798) it seems I have some relation to the Germanic peoples of Europe. For awhile I certainly felt fairly disconnected, but I have since realized that there are countless possibilities that could have resulted in my possibly Germanic ancestor or his descendants ending up in Scotland and adopting a Scottish surname.

    To quote our very own A Norfolk L-M20: (of course replace English and other English locales to Italian)

    I recently found out my exact Y-DNA haplogroup from FTDNA, I am J-L829 and my ancestors originate from Catanzaro in Calabria. I don't know much about ancestral genetics but how could even more Italian men contribute to my Y-DNA line? If my first ancestor was J-L829 then doesn't that mean all his male descendants are J-L829?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Phoenicians had much earlier contact with the Italian peninsula than the slaves of the Carthage. The TMRCA of J-L829 suggests that it came earlier into Europe roughly around the time that the Phoenicians were their prime with their vast trading network. There was 3 Phoenician colonies in Sicily and a known Phoenician quarter on the island of Ischia, Phoenicians very likely lived in the Etruscan and Greek cities in Italy, and as you said also Sardegna had Phoenician colonies and was later controlled by Carthage. If the TMRCA of J-L829 was around 2200 ybp than I would say its more likely that your ancestor was a slave, I would really reconsider the merchant possibility because it looks very considering the TMRCA. It isn't a disappointing result at all, I would suggest reading up on the history of the Phoenicians and the vital role they played in human history. Your line could be older in Italy than the Greek colonization, as I see this is a concern to you, like I said before dont be too hard on yourself. J1 in the South is anywhere from 5-8%, even majority of J2 is Middle Eastern technically as the real migration of J2 in Europe would have started sometime in the Middle-Late Bronze Age, and p.s. Lebanon has more J2 than J1.

    Even the Etruscans themselves are very likely (for me 100%) Middle Eastern in origin, their language, religion and some of the Y we see in Tuscany show that the Etruscans at one point originally lived somewhere in Eastern Turkey and had close ties with the Semitic world based on some key loan words. There is the possibility that your line could have been Etruscan. I doubt Greek, where is your paternal side from in Italy?
    My lineage is J-L829 originating from Cantezaro in Calabria. Considering Palermo was founded in 734 BC by Phonecia and assuming J-L829 in Europe is Phonecian then it is highly likely that my first in Italy already existed in Calabria by around 700-600BC at the latest. Phoenicians expanded throughout the Mediterranean while the Greeks focused on colonizing Southern Italy, they had wars over Sicily with the Greeks eventually but both Cultures in Italy were eventually absorbed by the Romans. A significant contribution to the Romans would have been Phoenician ships, they were copied and back engineered by the Romans but their copy wasn't as good, Phoneticians were the best sailers of the time and they are likely the descendants of the Sea Peoples during the Bronze Age collapse, I did a lot of research on the Sea peoples and they never harmed the Phonetician, they were likely related kin and the Sea peoples with their mysterious origins appeared out of nowhere and destroyed the Superpowers of the time, Hittite Empire and Myceanean Greece along with Ancient Egypt, with the Hittite Empire destroyed and the Egyptians and Greeks severely weakened, Phonecia expands throughout the Mediterranean.

    The Sea Peoples are a purported seafaring confederation that attacked ancient Egypt and other regions of the East Mediterranean prior to and during the Late Bronze Age collapse (1200–900 BC).[1][2] The Sea peoples destroyed their main competitors/enemies which paved the way for them to become more powerful.

    Major expansion of Phoenician Civilization into the Mediterranean, all the major towns/cities founded in 1000-700 BC.

    What I am wondering is how did my ancestors become Roman/Latinized? In most Cultures the man passes on his surname. I actually found my Roman latin surname on gens wiki pages, there are 2 branches of the family. None of them came from Calabria though, all Itallic tribes did expand from the North and the Romans/Itallics did expand into Calabria starting in 500 BC. They would have been far more numerous by 250-200BC.

    There is a possibility that he could have been Greek or even Italic himself? Italics were primarily R1b but they had a large minority of G and J2, some might have been J1 but it is unlikely. It is for certain that my first ancestor was either Greek or Phoenician.

    What I am having trouble understanding is how did my lineage become associated with my current surname? (The 2 Ancient Roman variations of it) I think it is likely that my Phonecian and/or Greek ancestor married an Itallic woman and she had his surname but they had male offspring and he chose to have the surname from his Itallic side.

    I did find a known Roman praetor in 107BC with my Ancient Surname on wiki, his name had a certain letter beside the surname, those might be indicating his Phoenician ancestry. I suspect he was of Phoenician ancestry because there are 2 other men with that letter who were freedmen so they were slaves. 1 Slave from the 1st century AD and another undated slave , both had "C" in their name beside another letter and the latin surname, perhaps they had long past Phoenician ancestry. They were likely citizens who committed a crime and were sentenced to slavery, only Roman citizens who were born in Italy (mostly all Italian/assimilated Greeks/some Phoenicians in the South) had full Roman citizenship until 212 AD when Emperor Caracella declared that all free born people in the Empire had full Roman citizenship.
    Last edited by Zorin; 05-30-2018 at 04:26 AM.

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  8. #67
    No, J1e is Levantine/Anatolian. There is one Palestinian I know who's J1e too.

  9. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by wandering_amorite View Post
    E-M123 is actually rather rare in Lebanon and Syria.
    They're rarer TODAY, but E carriers were dominating the Levant before J expanded into the region thousands of years ago. E carriers are on coast of the Levant from Palestine to Syria today along with J2. J1 is mostly inland which spread toward the south into the Arabian Peninsula.

  10. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by wandering_amorite View Post
    E-M123 is actually rather rare in Lebanon and Syria.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aradon View Post
    This relates to J1 in Italy but I am specifically looking into my Haplogroup, J-L829. Honestly, I am very dissapointed with my results, in the past I was hoping I would be R1b but then I found out Haplogroup J is much older than R1b and associated with Sumeria so I didn't care for being Haplogroup R anymore, but to find out I am J-L829 just makes me feel a lot less Italian. Originally, I was hoping my first ancestor in Italy was Etruscan, Greek or a Neolithic Remnant but it all seems unlikely, all evidence points towards it being a Phonecian, great enemy of Rome which was destroyed by the Roman Republic.

    All possibilities point to this, whether he was a slave or not, he was most likely Phoenician, a non-Italian, non-Greek, non-Etruscan, basically a very foreign culture not associated with benefiting/developing Ancient Italy/Rome like Greeks and Etruscans were.

    "
    Agamemnon who is an expert in J1. "PF4872 is a branch of L858, its subclade L829 (TMRCA ~3500 years BP) is one of the best candidates for a Phoenician marker under J1 since it has been found in Lebanon (notably in an individual hailing from Dalhoun, a village in the jabal el chouf region not far from the coastline, itself part of a larger group of villages associated with the Phoenician city-state of Sidon), in Palestinian individuals originally hailing from Ashkelon, in an Israeli Druze sample and in Mediterranean areas normally associated with Phoenician and Punic settlement. PF4872 has also been found in Lebanon, Turkey, Greece and in a sample claiming affiliation to the Tayy' tribe (as well as in an Ashkenazi Jew from Lithuania), so an association with Phoenicians might not be circumscribed to its subclade L829. PF4872's TMRCA is ~4225 years old, this seemingly coincides with the emergence of proto-NW Semitic.""

    "
    L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon)."

    This is why I think my first ancestor in Italy was a Phonecian slave, he might have raped an Italian woman which essentially started my lineage in Italy, forgive me for being so vulgar but I am just thinking of the possibilities.

    "Aftermath[edit]

    Ruins of Carthage
    Many Carthaginians died from starvation during the later part of the siege, while many others died in the final six days of fighting. When the war ended, the remaining 50,000 Carthaginians, a small part of the original pre-war population, were sold into slavery by the victors.[4] Carthage was systematically burned for 17 days; the city's walls and buildings were utterly destroyed. The remaining Carthaginian territories were annexed by Rome and reconstituted to become the Roman province of Africa.
    "


    Is there any way I can know for certain? Tuscany is the core of Etruscan Civilization, Haplogroup J1 is only 2% in the sample from Tuscany on Eupedia but if any are J-L829 then perhaps my first ancestor in Italy could have been Etruscan.
    I would be so proud to be a descendant of a Phoenician and I am. Apart from all the lists they gave you here, Greeks named your continent (Europe) after a Phoenician Goddess.

  11. #70
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    L829 is also listed under JewishDNA as Sephardic (other). https://jewishdna.net/AB-345.html

    What one can say about L829 is its likely related to Maritime populations, and could have spread with Bronze age, Phoenicians Israelite, Roman, Islam, or later periods. Defiantly footprints in Italy and Lebanon.

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