Poll: Which Bell Beaker model is closest to being right?

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Thread: Poll: Bell Beaker Models

  1. #21
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    In fact all the old models which did not recognise that BB derived from Yamnaya are now dead in the water. Ancient DNA has shown that BB East and BB Britain and Ireland carried ANE and R1b-P312+. So it's just a question of tying up the connections.
    Last edited by Jean M; 08-24-2017 at 09:02 AM.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Given that BB very obviously derives from Yamnaya, it is no longer a question of what came out of Iberia, but what went into it. That we may learn from Sion, Valencina de la Concepción and any other sites which are actually related to the stelae trail or the early copper-producing and/or working sites. So far the Heyd 2017 model has not really been tested.
    How do you think that Yamnaya looking individual ended up in Concepcion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    How do you think that Yamnaya looking individual ended up in Concepcion?
    The rock crystal dagger may suggest a route via the Alps. There are sources of rock crystal in Iberia, but as far as I know, it had not been worked earlier in Iberia, whereas there is a long history of its working in the Alps. Mind you it was apparently worked in Moravia in the Palaeolithic! Being wrapped up in my latest book, I have not had time to thoroughly research this aspect of the Valencina de la Concepción burial, I'm afraid.

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  6. #24
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    It is much easier to discount certain models (eg Spanish , Immobilist) than it is to nail ones colours to the mast and pick a model. Gimbutas or Dutch , although neither are rock solid IMO. Gimbutas , for now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    With regard to Sangmeister's Reflux Model (Rückstrom in German), which is simply a variation of the Spanish Model, Jeunesse says this, also on page 164: ... Without the idea that Bell Beaker first came out of Iberia, there would be no need for a reflux or backflow (Rückstrom) to explain why non-Iberian Bell Beaker is so different from the alleged Iberian original or how central European BB characteristics arrived in Iberia.
    Marc E. Heise's recent PhD: Heads North or East? A Re-Examination of Beaker Burials in Britain (University of Edinburgh 2014) includes a summary of Sangmeister that proves you right. Sangmeister did indeed suppose initially that BB pottery arose from Neolithic cultures in Iberia, but later realised his mistake:

    The Rückstromtheorie
    Another theory that gained wide acceptance was Edward Sangmeister’s ‘Rückstromtheorie’ (Reflux-Theory) (Sangmeister 1957; 1961, 25-56).22 This idea was based on a two-stage development of the ‘Beaker Culture’ that tried to explain its diffusion. Accepting Castillo’s view that the Maritime Beaker stood at the beginning of the Beaker development, he argued that it then spread from the Tagus estuary to east-central and central Europe. The prime catalyst for the spread northwards (either via migration or exchange of ideas or goods) was the search for metals (Sangmeister 1961, 25-56). The Maritime Beaker then developed hybrid forms, on the one hand with the Corded Ware in the Netherlands, and on the other hand with local pottery in Bohemia and Moravia. In that way, influenced by the alien pottery (and the people behind it), the local
    archaeological ‘cultures’ then formed Beaker ‘cultures’ that still retained local attributes, elements of which (namely wrist-guards, V-perforated buttons, the practice of single grave interment, copper daggers) then re-fluxed to the Iberian Peninsula and were responsible there for the formation of the late regional Beaker styles, e.g. Ciempozuelos or Palmela (Sangmeister 1966, 395-407). Stuart Piggott supported Sangmeister’s model and considered the British Beaker ‘cultures’ associated with, and being part of, the Rückstrom (Piggott 1963, 89).


    This model was criticized, for example by David L. Clarke, who argued on grounds of Dutch radiocarbon dates that AOC Beakers were older than Maritime Beakers or at least considerably overlapped chronologically, thus reversing Sangmeister’s sequence (Clarke 1970, 45). His second objection was that many European Maritime Beakers that should, according to Sangmeister, be part of the Beaker in-flux into central Europe already carried cord impressed lines which in the re-flux model would only have become part of the Beaker repertoire in the Rhineland (ibid., 45-46). Additionally, Clarke criticized the “strange hotchpotch” of elements belonging to the reflux-movements and lastly the short chronology of 200 years that Sangmeister calculated for both flux and re-flux (ibid., 46-47). Sangmeister’s comparison of finds over very large distances, such as comparing Ciempozuelos pottery and Beaker pottery from Bohemia and Moravia also weakened his theory. When revising his model, Sangmeister himself criticized his theory, as it was at least partially based on a flawed premise. He realised that the opinion held at the time, that the Maritime Beaker derived from Neolithic impressed wares and had their position at the beginning of the Beaker development, was wrong. In accepting this, a major argument of the reflux-theory disappeared (Sangmeister 2008, unpublished manuscript).

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Given that BB very obviously derives from Yamnaya, it is no longer a question of what came out of Iberia, but what went into it. That we may learn from Sion, Valencina de la Concepción and any other sites which are actually related to the stelae trail or the early copper-producing and/or working sites. So far the Heyd 2017 model has not really been tested.
    That may be true. Valencina de la Concepción and Sion may change things, but if steppe people went into Iberia early, there is no genetic sign of it yet or that they or their descendants came out again.
    Last edited by rms2; 08-24-2017 at 02:21 PM.
     


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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by angscoire View Post
    It is much easier to discount certain models (eg Spanish , Immobilist) than it is to nail ones colours to the mast and pick a model. Gimbutas or Dutch , although neither are rock solid IMO. Gimbutas , for now.
    Very true.

    Christian Jeunesse is helpful in explaining how the Spanish Model came to prominence and what some of its weaknesses are, but he is of little help in choosing between Gimbutas and the Dutch Model.

    On the one hand he says the following, which sure sounds like Gimbutas:

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Jeunesse
    • The chronology of the cemeteries of the Eastern group: the idea of a central European origin of the Bell Beaker would have led experts to examine the typological variability of the pottery assemblages discovered in the graves in a different way. If the Bell Beaker originates from the Danubian area, the possibility would be carefully examined that at least some of the assemblages without decorated beakers, those most obviously from the Post-Vučedol complex, could be placed at the start of the sequence within the internal periodization of the cemeteries.
    On the other hand he says this, which sounds like an endorsement of the Dutch Model:

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Jeunesse
    • The origin of the decorated bell-shaped beaker: it would not have been advanced, as it still is today, that the bell-shaped beaker has no regional precursor. Through its shape, its decoration with horizontal bands and the frequent use of impressed corded decoration a probable evolution from the corded beaker would have been suggested, as put forward by the supporters of the Dutch model (who have not been criticised with regard to this point of their construction).
    He also comments on the so-called Begleitkeramik, which also sounds like it tends to support Gimbutas:

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Jeunesse
    • The notion of Begleitkeramik : the notion of Begleitkeramik, starting point and corner stone of a large number of current studies would obviously never have arisen as it would not have made any sense for a phenomenon the epicentre of which was located in the Danubian regions, more precisely those regions from which the so-called «accompanying pottery» stems.
    Last edited by rms2; 08-24-2017 at 02:41 PM.
     


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  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    So how did you vote? Dutch Model?
    Not sure how the vote. There is an element of better th the Dutch and reflux models in my than thoughts but not exactly the same as either.

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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Not sure how the vote. There is an element of better th the Dutch and reflux models in my than thoughts but not exactly the same as either.
    I still haven't voted yet, but I suspect BB did not originate in Iberia in any meaningful way. I lean toward a kind of hybrid of Gimbutas and the Dutch Model.

    I can't quite get over the plain, one-picture-is-worth-a-thousand-words argument of the Dutch Model, but Gimbutas makes sense to me, as well.
     


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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    That may be true. Valencina de la Concepción and Sion may change things, but if steppe people went into Iberia early, there is no genetic sign of it yet or that they or their descendants came out again.
    There are signs in the archaeology of an exodus from Iberia at around the time (2400 BC?) that BB started to appear more widely. Some sites in Portugal were abandoned and burial mounds closed. But that is not to say that they all left. Then we have the reflux from BB East 2200 BC and possibly people arriving south down the Atlantic route from 1300 to 700 BC.

    By the Bronze Age we have steppe DNA present in Iberia, as expected, given that some people were speaking Celtic there in the Iron Age. But we do not know whether that came in with people like our chap at Valencina de la Concepción, or some later stage, or all of them.

    I think we really need to forget any idea of Iberia having a sudden and virtually complete population replacement like the one we see in Britain. The archaeology gives no reason to expect every single person in the whole peninsula to suddenly be not descended from Neolithic farmers any more the minute that we get a few scattered copper working sites with a handful of people in them. It is no use testing just anybody of a Chalcolithic date.
    Last edited by Jean M; 08-24-2017 at 03:02 PM.

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