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Thread: A few questions/discussion about I-M253

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    A few questions/discussion about I-M253

    Recently I've been reading various blogs and I came across a theory someone posed in which they stated they believed that I-M253 is not the result of mesolithic survival or Germanic migration but the result of a Neolithic culture spreading.

    They seemed to feel that this was supported by the discovery of I-M253 in a Neolithic site in Hungary.

    My questions are:
    - is there any validity in this theory?
    - if there is any, what sort of contradictory evidence is there?
    - this is unknowable at this current time due to a lack of ancient samples with I1 Y-DNA?

    Feel free to discuss and add any ideas or comments to this thread. I'm by no means well versed enough in pre-history to know enough information on the mesolithic, neolithic or subsequent cultural groups.

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    Since I-M253 might be 27,000 years old I think it's very plausible that it might have been flourishing during Neolithic times prior to the Indo European invasions. However, if we are talking about I1 today or more specifically I-DF29 I think the evidence is pretty strong for a Bronze Age origin with a Germanic migrations dispersal.
    Last edited by mwauthy; 09-05-2017 at 11:53 PM. Reason: Addition

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    Since I-M253 might be 27,000 years old I think it's very plausible that it might have been flourishing during Neolithic times prior to the Indo European invasions. However, if we are talking about I1 today or more specifically I-DF29 I think the evidence is pretty strong for a Bronze Age origin with a Germanic migrations dispersal.
    That definitely makes a lot of sense. Certainly is interesting that the majority of I1 belongs to some downstream clade of I-DF29.

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    What I find fascinating is how I-DF29 rose to prominence in Northern Europe after the Indo European invasions. Since the vast majority of I-M253 lineages died out and the culture and language became Indo European we know who the victors were.

    For some reason the story about Moses seems to come to mind. Maybe some peasant put their I-DF29 baby in a basket floating down the river and then that baby was adopted by a family member of that northern "Pharaoh" or ruling dynasty at that time. Or maybe there was some scandalous non paternal event that allowed this y-chromosome to reach a powerful position and from there was able to Ghengis Khan his way to Y chromosome dominance on the surrounding populations.

    I doubt this question will ever be answered but the plethora of possibilities are fascinating.

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    There is also Stora Forvar 11 from the Island of Gotland, Sweden. He is dated to about the same time as BAB5 (the Hungarian sample). SF11 has most of the I1 calls but not all. This shows that I1 was spread from Hungary to Gotland at the same time with some diversity in SNPs.

    However, almost all I1 did not survive, just mostly DF29 who was the father of "modern" I1. Probably somewhere in or around Denmark, south Sweden, or north Germany. People without DF29 can be found but they are rare.

    Ethnically, BAB5 was mostly Early European Farmer (~90%) while SF11 was about 8% EEF and the rest mostly Hunter/Gatherer closer to the Motala I2 samples. SF11 did have another small piece of Ancestral North Eurasian. This is from Genetiker's blog.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    What I find fascinating is how I-DF29 rose to prominence in Northern Europe after the Indo European invasions. Since the vast majority of I-M253 lineages died out and the culture and language became Indo European we know who the victors were.

    For some reason the story about Moses seems to come to mind. Maybe some peasant put their I-DF29 baby in a basket floating down the river and then that baby was adopted by a family member of that northern "Pharaoh" or ruling dynasty at that time. Or maybe there was some scandalous non paternal event that allowed this y-chromosome to reach a powerful position and from there was able to Ghengis Khan his way to Y chromosome dominance on the surrounding populations.

    I doubt this question will ever be answered but the plethora of possibilities are fascinating.
    That is a tantalizing theory. Perhaps Mr. DF29 and his descendants were just in the right place at the right time. I-DF29 was certainly a successful lineage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sassoneg View Post
    There is also Stora Forvar 11 from the Island of Gotland, Sweden. He is dated to about the same time as BAB5 (the Hungarian sample). SF11 has most of the I1 calls but not all. This shows that I1 was spread from Hungary to Gotland at the same time with some diversity in SNPs.

    However, almost all I1 did not survive, just mostly DF29 who was the father of "modern" I1. Probably somewhere in or around Denmark, south Sweden, or north Germany. People without DF29 can be found but they are rare.

    Ethnically, BAB5 was mostly Early European Farmer (~90%) while SF11 was about 8% EEF and the rest mostly Hunter/Gatherer closer to the Motala I2 samples. SF11 did have another small piece of Ancestral North Eurasian. This is from Genetiker's blog.
    Are SF11 and BAB5 kits available on gedmatch? I seem to recall SF11 was positive for a number of I-M253 SNPs but not M253 or its phyloequivalents. I believe his Y-SNP calls are available here.

    Does the pre-I1 lineage in Mesolithic Scandinavia necessarily mean that I1 and related lineages were spread from Hungary to Scandinavia? Is not possible for there to have been two (or more) distinct lineages one migrating more northerly (and dying out) and the other (M253) staying in the Hungary area longer? Or is this idea way off?
    Last edited by spruithean; 09-06-2017 at 10:03 PM.

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    I think I-M253 were primarily hunter gatherers. During the last ice age they probably retreated to southeastern Europe near Hungary. Most lineages were probably displaced by the incoming farmers during the Neolithic. A few might have been absorbed like the sample found in Hungary but over time would die out.

    When the ice melted some lineages probably went back north to Scandinavia away from the farmers like the Swedish sample found. Eventually most of those lineages would be displaced by farmers and then the Indo Europeans.

    A few lineages were probably absorbed in the north in the Corded Ware culture where Mr. I-DF29 was maybe born.

    Why didn't his lineage die out? Why did it rise to prominence? These are all fascinating questions.

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    I-DF29 was certainly not as successful as some R lines but he did rise to some level of prominence.

    It would certainly be great to find early I-DF29 in aDNA, it could help complete the picture to some degree I'm sure. We have some I-Z59 and I-Z63 clades in Poland, so we have some idea about the distribution of those two. It would also be interesting to have deeper SNP testing if possible on the I-S107 Anglo-Saxon from the Teesside in England, was he I-Z58 or something downstream or was he L22 or Z63?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    I-DF29 was certainly not as successful as some R lines but he did rise to some level of prominence.

    It would certainly be great to find early I-DF29 in aDNA, it could help complete the picture to some degree I'm sure. We have some I-Z59 and I-Z63 clades in Poland, so we have some idea about the distribution of those two. It would also be interesting to have deeper SNP testing if possible on the I-S107 Anglo-Saxon from the Teesside in England, was he I-Z58 or something downstream or was he L22 or Z63?
    I'm also quite interested in I1 and DF29 genesis, and yes, I hope we do get better testing on some of these old I1 samples.

    Here are some facts:

    1. Modern I1 and ancient I1 are very different due to the success of Mr. DF29. We can throw out most distributions, ethnicity, etc stemming from the DF29 explosion.
    2. All known I1 samples contain Neolithic Farmer components, ranging from almost pure farmer to almost all Hunter/Gatherer (we don't have a "pure" ethnic sample of I1 unlike G2a and I2)
    3. I2 and I1 had to shelter somewhere from the ice ages. It's very clear that neither made it out of Europe.

    I think based on location and known samples stretching from Hungary to Sweden (not only SF11 but also Angmollen), it's most likely that the Balkan area was their refuge. I imagine that before the last ice age most of Europe was I2 and I1 hunter/gatherers. The I1 may have been more northern and thus more at risk from the last glacial maximum. All tribes would have consolidated into a smaller area and if the I1 were northern they would have had to go farther and possibly face more resistance for space. I think it's clear that after the LGM there was not much I1 in Europe. The G2a farmers then expanded and could have pushed the I1 out of Balkan area and Hungary slowly but surely, absorbing some such as BAB5 on the way.

    If there were I1 in the early farmers and not europeans then I would expect more to be found in the G2a home zones pre-expansion. The hunter/gatherer always has given way to the farmer due to the ease of movement for their culture and the farmer's need to stake out territory and defend it. I1 could have been expanding north into Europe on a similar time scale to the farmers, pushing ever north up the Danube and eventually into northern Germany, where Mr. DF29 became very powerful. If any was in the eastern and Baltic areas it could have been hit hard by R1a/R1b expansions.

    I do wonder if we will ever get enough I1* data of living men to do a large analysis. There are a significant number of DF29- men on Yfull but they are found in only Germanic/Nordic tribe areas (the one in Russia could have been Swedish Viking origin?).

    I hope we will have an answer some day other than "almost all I1 was wiped out and DF29 launched it into popularity somehow."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sassoneg View Post
    I'm also quite interested in I1 and DF29 genesis, and yes, I hope we do get better testing on some of these old I1 samples.

    Here are some facts:

    1. Modern I1 and ancient I1 are very different due to the success of Mr. DF29. We can throw out most distributions, ethnicity, etc stemming from the DF29 explosion.
    2. All known I1 samples contain Neolithic Farmer components, ranging from almost pure farmer to almost all Hunter/Gatherer (we don't have a "pure" ethnic sample of I1 unlike G2a and I2)
    3. I2 and I1 had to shelter somewhere from the ice ages. It's very clear that neither made it out of Europe.
    I'm familiar with the Teesside Anglo-Saxon I1 (NO3423) and his ancient composition, which was seemingly quite different from the RISE207 individual from Angmollan, he seemed to resemble early farmers somewhat IIRC. NO3423 had a fair bit of hunter-gatherer ancestry. I'm unaware of the composition of SF11 or BAB5, though I assume BAB5 was mostly EEF. SF11 is certainly interesting though, he seems to be pre-I1. I-DF29 had to have had some high status, or just really good luck for his line to be so successful.


    I think based on location and known samples stretching from Hungary to Sweden (not only SF11 but also Angmollen), it's most likely that the Balkan area was their refuge. I imagine that before the last ice age most of Europe was I2 and I1 hunter/gatherers. The I1 may have been more northern and thus more at risk from the last glacial maximum. All tribes would have consolidated into a smaller area and if the I1 were northern they would have had to go farther and possibly face more resistance for space. I think it's clear that after the LGM there was not much I1 in Europe. The G2a farmers then expanded and could have pushed the I1 out of Balkan area and Hungary slowly but surely, absorbing some such as BAB5 on the way.
    Seeing as how I'm not well versed in the various haplogroups and where they've been found in aDNA samples this seems to be a reasonable idea.

    If there were I1 in the early farmers and not europeans then I would expect more to be found in the G2a home zones pre-expansion. The hunter/gatherer always has given way to the farmer due to the ease of movement for their culture and the farmer's need to stake out territory and defend it. I1 could have been expanding north into Europe on a similar time scale to the farmers, pushing ever north up the Danube and eventually into northern Germany, where Mr. DF29 became very powerful. If any was in the eastern and Baltic areas it could have been hit hard by R1a/R1b expansions.

    I do wonder if we will ever get enough I1* data of living men to do a large analysis. There are a significant number of DF29- men on Yfull but they are found in only Germanic/Nordic tribe areas (the one in Russia could have been Swedish Viking origin?).

    I hope we will have an answer some day other than "almost all I1 was wiped out and DF29 launched it into popularity somehow."
    I think a fair bit of I1 was overwhelmed by the incoming R-folk and what they brought with them. I've also wondered if perhaps there was a cultural reason as to why we have not found that many I1 samples in aDNA.

    Perhaps for now we can imagine DF29 was some sort of Beowulf figure or perhaps he "węs god cyning"

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