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Thread: L513 line genealogies

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Interesting when it comes to FGC9775 the convergence date in Iain McDonald's work would point to it been in right timeframe to be connected to expansion of the Maguires:

    The table below gives a "best guess" at a convergence date, but the true date could be anywhere within the stated 95% confidence interval (and even then only with 95% certainty).
    Clade\t Best guess 95% confidence interval
    FGC9775 1140 AD (742 AD — 1440 AD)
    Wow - thanks Dubhthach: great background information. It is amazing the extent to which those archaeological zones, and linguistic categories, can be seen in some clades. Do you happen to have a distribution map for L513 similar to the M222 one you posted?

    The Maguires are clearly the largest grouping within L513 in Ireland; but to my knowledge the highest overall frequency of L513 in Ireland is still down in Munster (the O'Shea grouping, for instance, which seems to be the 'Kerry core' of that surname). So there must be a genetic link between these areas, again something which comes up in the pseudo-history when there is mention of the Dal Riata migrating into the north from Munster. Plus, L513 is found in both Ulster and Munster, which doesn't entirely line up with the La Tène findings in the map?

  2. #32
    L513 is not Ulaid, which is a branch of M222, nor are they Cruithne, for the Ui Eathach Cobha (Magennis, MacCann etc.) are I2a. L513 might be described as Erainn?

    That the Kerry O'Shea are L513 is interesting for they are from Corcu Duibhne, which in turn claim to be from Síl Conairi. This makes them relatives of the Dal Riada for they both claim descent from Síl Conairi. This connection doesn't change my opinion that Dal Riada are L1065, it does for me suggest that the Dal Riada might have stolen the origin story of their allies.

    Are the L513>S5668 the Darini\Dáirine ??

    "The Darini (Δαρῖνοι) (manuscript variant: Darnii [Δάρνιοι]) were a people of ancient Ireland mentioned in Ptolemy's 2nd century Geography as living in south Antrim and north Down.[1] Their name implies descent from an ancestor called Dáire (*Dārios),[2] as claimed by several historical peoples, including the Dál Riata and Dál Fiatach (Ulaidh) in the same area of eastern Ulster[3] as well the Érainn (Iverni) of Munster. An early name for Dundrum, County Down, is recorded as Dún Droma Dáirine, and the name Dáirine was applied to the Érainn dynasty."
    Last edited by Muireagain; 09-13-2017 at 03:55 PM.

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muireagain View Post
    L513 is not Ulaid, which is a branch of M222, nor are they Cruithne, for the Ui Eathach Cobha (Magennis, MacCann etc.) are I2a. L513 might be described as Erainn?
    ...and indeed the Erainn (Iverni) were said to be related to the Fir Bolg/Belgae, which might explain the links to present-day Britain, and the continental (also specifically Belgian) folks we're seeing in L513?

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  6. #34
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    Olympic Coast
    100% Mutt mostly Irish
    Y-DNA (P)

    United States of America Ireland Scotland Germany Imperial
    Somewhat speculating here looks to me that L513>S5668 split at A7 & Z16340.
    Z16340 has Menapia origins and they had ties to and with Veneti in pre Roman times. Both are seafaring tribes so trading and raiding were commonplace.
    Taking numbers from Alex's Tree:
    There are 39 Z16340 NGS men.
    There 106 A7 NGS men
    There are 13 Z16357 NGS men.
    For a total of 160 S5668 NGS men.

    Clearly these lines were related some 3800ybp (according to YFull)
    A7 is est at 3800ybp where Z16340 is est at 3400ybp.

    Until we dig up some of these related and separate SNPs....I'm not sure a true genealogy can be accurately determined.

    Within the Maguire line (Mag Uidhir) there is such widespread speculation and/or deadset belief in a particular pedigree, that I have no problem believing many are pedigrees of convenience to offset land confiscation.

    But that's just me.

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  8. #35
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    Dún Laoire, Bláth Cliath, Éire
    Y-DNA (P)
    mtDNA (M)

    What we are really missing is more ancient DNA from Ireland, the only examples we have our Neolithic and Early Bronze age. Several major cemetries were discovered during the economic boom in Ireland due to development. A good example is the one in Cabinteely in South Dublin (which is on southern edge of the Dublin urban area). A graveyard containing over 1500 remains covering a period of 7 centuries (earliest remains date to 5th century AD)


    see report here:

    There are several such major finds with decent quality skeleton discovered in last 15-20 years. Up in South Donegal near the Fermanagh border for example there is similar site with equivalent number of bodies and usage period (well from 7th to 14th centuries).

    It's only when we build up a proper database of the distrubution of Y-chromosome haplogorups throughout the historical period will we be able to set baselines for when a specific haplogroup might be in a specific geographic region.
    (MtDNA: U4d3)

    How to pronounce my username (modern Irish):
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  10. #36
    From 14th century Irish sources we are told:
    "Dal-Raita and the Fir Alban. They are both of the seed of Coirpre Rigfota, son of Conaire, son of Mog of Munster. Great famine came on Munster, so that the seed of Coirpre Rigfota departed from it, and one division of them reached Scotland, while the other division remained in Erin: whence the Dal Riata to this day."
    "Cairbre Rigfhota, that is a long (fota) forearm (rig) had he. Or rig ḟota, that is he made a stretching-out (rigid) afar (hi fota), to wit, getting Ireland and invading Scotland, so that afterwards from him Dál-Riatai in Scotland (is named)."

    The O'Shea of Muscraighe are L513 and are said to share common ancestry with the descendants of Cairpre Righfada who settled in Scotland .Suggesting the Scottish L513 families are "descendants of Cairpre Righfada". However the Dal Riata, who settled Scotland north of Forth, would be L1065 - as reflected by the majority of highland being L1065+.

    This suggests that a false assumption has arisen that the Dal Riata were descended from Cairpre Righfada. It would seem that the descendants of Cairpre Righfada settled Scotland independently of the Dal Riata, and that the two population have later become confused as one people?
    Last edited by Muireagain; 10-27-2017 at 12:18 AM.

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