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Thread: Libyan GEDmtch kits

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleach View Post
    Djerbian Tunisian really ?
    I would like to see their K36,because I saw several coastal Tunisian (Sfax,Sousse,Monastir) for who I supposed them to be the most Levantine , their total West Asian part (Armenian, West Caucasus,North Caucasus) is 3%(vs 15%for Christian Lebanese),that mean they could have got 20% of their ancestry from Phoenicians /Cathaginians.
    Nevertheless that West Asian part could also come from turkish and causasian soldiers callerd koulouglis who would have been settled in number in these regions over the ottoman périod.
    Paradoxically,Tunis area which should be the most cathaginian admixed, ses a very low West Asian allele rate.

    Nb: East med,Near estern and Arabian alleles are not relevant to be directly compared in the case of the North african Populations between Levantines.
    Because pure berbers populations owe these 3 ancestry since neolithic and paleolithic time.(ses Natufian/ibero maurusian connexion)
    Again , you are being too zeal on GEDmatch alone. Read peer reviewed studies and uniparental studies.... I'll try to look for few studies I've read on Tunisians recently.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleach View Post
    Here are 3 Cyrenaica Libyans K36 results We can clearly see they are strongly admixed (around 40%) with Arabian Banu Salim tribes who settled there over the 11th century. No aegean admixture spotted.
    In #2 Italian is taken from first (because total is 105%). In third South central-Asian is taken from second

    Still they have too high Italian and Near-Eastern, and too low North-African (except #3) comparing to samples which I have.

    Here there are on North African K36 PCA.

    But possibly #1 and# 2 are from Egypt proximity. #2 is even closer to Egypt than Cirenaica Third is shifted toward Tripolitania possibly.

    It isn't follow exactly geography because for example ALG north-west is less Berber (North African) than Kabylie which is because of that closer to Moroccan Berbers, the same is true for very North African Tunisian Chenini Berbers or ALG north-east which is possibly from Aures. In turn ALG Laghouat is very Arab for Algeria.
    Last edited by lukaszM; 09-30-2018 at 11:53 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Judging by those results, I need to assume that Mycnaeans had French, Iberian, and North African admixtures, right? Well not exactly, if I'd quote Mathew Brit's excellent into on GEDmatch K36 calculator and results reading
    Same goes for the rest of the categories.

    I recommend you'd read the entire thing:
    https://mpbritt.com/eurogenes-k36-ma...mixture-tests/
    I think you're going a little fast.
    Of course the categories of the eurogenes k36 are not to be taken literally because on the one hand their name has been arbitrarily attributed by the creator and especially because the running allele is in supervised mode.
    However, you are completely missing something that is fundamental.
    All the samples of the world and whatever they are ancient or not, except of course those that were used for the creation of the ancestries, are directly comparable to each other.
    Contrary to what you might think, we do not really care if the components are called French, iberian, Italian, West Caucasus, etc.
    For better understanding we should even rename them according to colors, for example ( Iberian = yellow, Italian = blue, West Caucasus = green, etc ...)by this way you would not have suspected me to believe that the Mycenians have French and Spanish origins (I'm not completely stupid do not you)
    What matters is to make average spreadsheet for each population and that the averages are based on the largest possible number of samples.
    If you want to be as scientific as possible with gedmatch because after all I do not deny to be hobbyst and amateur, we need to proceed as the oracles do.
    So when I say that Levantines have an average of 15% West Asian allele, it does not mean that 15% of their ancestors come from West Asia, it only means that they share a genetic make-up that represents 15% of their DNA and that same component is also shared up to 3% among the coastal tunisians and 0% by Moroccans and Algerians,After I just bring my own interpretation given historical fact in that region.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    So instead of literally putting all our evidence for our cases on GEDmatch, also use peer reviewed studies to validate or invalidate your ideas. Also, please, not only autosomal - use uniparental evidence (or lack of).

    You did not hesitate to question these peer reviewed studies by claiming that they overestimated by more than 20 points the leventine contribution to the ashkenazim
    And you know what ? I completely agree with you, because I came to exactly the same conclusions by studying by mysel but how did I manage?
    So with an average spreadsheet k36 and the calculator
    It seems to me that you have used nmonte k25 no to question pere review author?
    Are you a scientist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    It is important to note here that Bronze Age Steppe populations used in the model need not be the actual ancestral mixing populations, and the admixture could have involved a population which was itself admixed with a Steppe-like ancestry population. The time period of this mixture overlaps with the decline of the Egyptian empire and its domination over the Levant, leading some of the coastal cities to thrive, including Sidon and Tyre, which established at this time a successful maritime trade network throughout the Mediterranean. The decline in Egypt’s power was also followed by a succession of conquests of the region by distant populations such as the Assyrians, Persians, and Macedonians, any or all of whom could have carried the Steppe-like ancestry observed here in the Levant after the Bronze Age.
    Well, I think it comes from the Assyrians and the Syro Hittite kingdoms that followed the collapse of the bronze age
    Because Sidon and bronze age Levant don t have north Caucasus while it hit around 3-4%
    For modern Lebanese.
    Once again Modern Lebanese don t Have more than 0,3% in East balkan so i don t believe signifiant greek macedonian input

  4. #24
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    PCA with those supposed kits from Libya added by Hurricane
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post498015

    As I predicted there were skewed, B (second) heavily towards Maghreb, first (A) in Sudan's Arabs direction.
    I have also academic Egypt regional kits, but I'm to lazy to divide now. There are very similar to each other anyway.

    Last edited by lukaszM; 09-30-2018 at 03:15 PM.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to lukaszM For This Useful Post:

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  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleach View Post
    I think you're going a little fast.
    Of course the categories of the eurogenes k36 are not to be taken literally because on the one hand their name has been arbitrarily attributed by the creator and especially because the running allele is in supervised mode.
    However, you are completely missing something that is fundamental.
    All the samples of the world and whatever they are ancient or not, except of course those that were used for the creation of the ancestries, are directly comparable to each other.
    Contrary to what you might think, we do not really care if the components are called French, iberian, Italian, West Caucasus, etc.
    For better understanding we should even rename them according to colors, for example ( Iberian = yellow, Italian = blue, West Caucasus = green, etc ...)by this way you would not have suspected me to believe that the Mycenians have French and Spanish origins (I'm not completely stupid do not you)
    What matters is to make average spreadsheet for each population and that the averages are based on the largest possible number of samples.
    If you want to be as scientific as possible with gedmatch because after all I do not deny to be hobbyst and amateur, we need to proceed as the oracles do.
    So when I say that Levantines have an average of 15% West Asian allele, it does not mean that 15% of their ancestors come from West Asia, it only means that they share a genetic make-up that represents 15% of their DNA and that same component is also shared up to 3% among the coastal tunisians and 0% by Moroccans and Algerians,After I just bring my own interpretation given historical fact in that region.
    Good to see that you understand how K36 and GEDmatch results in general work, because at the other thread it seems like you were emphasizing way too much on the North African results all Western Jews receive, as an indicator all of them descend from Sephardic Jews. Using you same logic, being that Mycenaean samples show North African in their K36, should we assume they also have North African admixture? No - and you agreed. You should always compare, as you rightly said, the results of samples to other samples, and see if it's more than a given range, or less.



    You did not hesitate to question these peer reviewed studies by claiming that they overestimated by more than 20 points the leventine contribution to the ashkenazim
    And you know what ? I completely agree with you, because I came to exactly the same conclusions by studying by mysel but how did I manage?
    So with an average spreadsheet k36 and the calculator
    It seems to me that you have used nmonte k25 no to question pere review author?
    Are you a scientist?
    I have used several methods and calculators - K7, K36, Global25 and MDLP-22, and not only nMonte but PCAs and peer-reviewed studies. Also, used uniparental studies to negate existing notions. And, known history of Jewish migrations. I have no problem questioning peer-reviewed studies one specific mistakes they are doing - but I still uphold them in great respect.



    Well, I think it comes from the Assyrians and the Syro Hittite kingdoms that followed the collapse of the bronze age
    I actually agree with you on that, and believe most of the Steppe-like admixture arrived via Assyrians. I also believe my own Levantine paternal haplogroup - Q-M378 - arrived from Hurrians via Assyrians to the rest of the Levant and Middle East.

    I also believe there was some contribution from Greeks to the Levant - especially the North Levant, bordering Asia Minor. I think the fact that there is no Greek admixture at all in Cirenaica Libyans or Copts is actually extremely interesting phenomenon that needs to be historically explained. Probably has to do also with the fact of why Greek survived for so long in the Levant while along with Latin was quickly replaced in North Africa.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 09-30-2018 at 01:06 PM.
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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    PCA with those supposed kits from Libya added by Hurricane
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post498015

    As I predicted there were skewed, B (second) heavily towards Maghreb, first (A) in Sudan's Arabs direction.
    I have also academic Egypt regional kits, but I'm to lazy to divide now. There are very similar to each other anyway.

    2 other Cyrenaica Libyans

    #4
    Arabian 19,84
    Arménien 0,88
    Central_Euro 1,1
    East African 0,
    East_Balkan 0,
    East med 11,31
    Iberian 2,17
    Italian 4,77
    Near_Eastern 14,69
    North_African 18,5
    North_Caucasian 0
    Northeast_African 19,05
    South_Central_Asian 0
    West_African 1,46
    West_Med 6,23

    #5
    Arabian 16,68
    Arménien 0
    East African 0,17
    East_Balkan 0,22
    East med 13,97
    Iberian 9,76
    Italian 4,11
    Near_Eastern 16,22
    North_African 21,3
    North_Caucasian 0
    Northeast_African 13,69
    South_Central_Asian 0
    West_African 0,67
    West_Med 3,15

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24180322/
    Ethnic composition and genetic differentiation of the Libyan population: insights on Alu polymorphisms.

    Halima AB, et al. Ann Hum Biol. 2014 May-Jun.

    RESULTS:*The current general Libyan population is homogeneous and shows considerable genetic diversity compared with other North Mediterranean and North African populations. It shows intermediate genetic distances between Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisians on one side and Egyptian Siwa Berbers on the other. No particular affinities with Middle Eastern groups were detected.
    Last edited by Bleach; 09-30-2018 at 03:59 PM.

  8. #27
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    Their North African% is still low; and I bet many of them would be M183 carriers yet they lack North African%
    Bleach can you post their Gedrosia K12 and Deocad World9 results
    Last edited by Missouri1455; 03-13-2019 at 05:11 AM.

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    In #2 Italian is taken from first (because total is 105%). In third South central-Asian is taken from second

    Still they have too high Italian and Near-Eastern, and too low North-African (except #3) comparing to samples which I have.

    Here there are on North African K36 PCA.

    But possibly #1 and# 2 are from Egypt proximity. #2 is even closer to Egypt than Cirenaica Third is shifted toward Tripolitania possibly.

    It isn't follow exactly geography because for example ALG north-west is less Berber (North African) than Kabylie which is because of that closer to Moroccan Berbers, the same is true for very North African Tunisian Chenini Berbers or ALG north-east which is possibly from Aures. In turn ALG Laghouat is very Arab for Algeria.
    Do you have Gedmatch kits for Chenini-Douriet Berbers?

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