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Thread: Early R1b-Zarzian hunter gatherers in Iran?

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    Early R1b-Zarzian hunter gatherers in Iran?

    I believe that the most likely position for P25* and upstream in the period 15000BC-9000BC when there was little else in R1b is likely in northern Iran where more of this has been observed than anywhere else. That corresponds with the Zarzian culture very well. The date match is rather uncanny. Factors like the LGM, deserification and apparent abandonment of north central Asia in the LGM and enormous flooding just after the LGM of south Russia and western north central Asia and the east Caucasus limit the options. Iran was the least effected zone by these post-LGM floods.

    It is also well known that north-south and south-north movement was greatly hampered in the period 15000-12000BC especially. The younger dryas make also have delayed this. It seem unlikely that it moved north before this given the lack of P25* in the north and the barrier that existed to this which appears to have coincided with the first 3000 years of its existence. It is interesting that the opening up of opportunities for P25* lines to head north does date to the same period as P297. It is clear from the lack of any remains of the P297* until 5000BC that it had moved out of the early farming zone before 8000BC. So you could say that provides a nice pair of bookends pushing this hypothetical move into the period around 9000BC. This is exactly the date estimated for P297. I need to dig about a bit more for evidence of this sort of move although I already quoted an example of a move through the Caucasus into Russia a little north of the Caucasus in this timeframe.

    The Zarzian is thought to descend from members of the Baradostian culture of the Zagross who surived the LGM by abandoning the uplands. My guess would be a move to the south Caspian. The Barodostian is similar to Aurignacian of Europe and similar Levantine cultures. It dates from about 35000BC to the LGM. IMO that sort of date and distribution is a very good match for the proposed split of F into the IJ line of the Levant and Anatolia and the K line. That almost takes us back to the origin of modern humans in the area. Perhaps the K and then P lines headed from the Iran sort of area. There original distribution was probably very much altered by the abandonment of much of north central Asia during the LGM followed by massive flooding in western north-central Asia which both may have pushed many lines south and east. Anyway,. it would seem a reasonable supposition that R* arose in the LGM among some of the groups. If the Zarzian is descended from earlier Baradostian Aurignoid groups in the Zagros who abandoned the uplands in the LGM that would suggest that may have been the cultural identity and location of R* and upstream of that. However, there were other Aurignoid groups in north central Asia before the LGM so I wouldnt push this.

    So, it seems to me that Zarzian groups in northern Iran may have been the source of early R1b, best represented by P25*, and the most likely date of their offshoot north is around 9000BC when a move north probably finally had a combination of possibility and attractiveness. This is very close to the date of P297. This also makes sense because it is necessary to get this line out of the zone of early farming which appears from the complete lack of P297* anywhere to have passed this line by, the latter tottering on the edge of existence until the 5000-3500BC era.

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    Papers on the Zarzian

    This one does waffle a lot about the Levant as its far better studied but it is not strongly suggesting an origin there.

    humanities.journals.modares.ac.ir/?_action=showPDF...255...

    There is one problem with my theory. The Zagros area was involved in the Neolithic fairly early. I notice on the web attemps to link it to J and also to nostratic. Speculative to say the least. However, it is more to the elements on the Caspian that I am looking to. Just chewing over an idea really.

    This is an abstract for a new paper behind a paywall for similar cultures of the same date in the Caucasus. Would love to be able to read it.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...40618212003035
    Last edited by alan; 08-09-2013 at 05:15 PM.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Papers on the Zarzian

    This one does waffle a lot about the Levant as its far better studied but it is not strongly suggesting an origin there.

    humanities.journals.modares.ac.ir/?_action=showPDF...255...

    There is one problem with my theory. The Zagros area was involved in the Neolithic fairly early. I notice on the web attemps to link it to J and also to nostratic. Speculative to say the least. However, it is more to the elements on the Caspian that I am looking to. Just chewing over an idea really.

    This is an abstract for a new paper behind a paywall for similar cultures of the same date in the Caucasus. Would love to be able to read it.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...40618212003035
    And linking it to R-P25* is speculative as well. But I agree with you on the Caspian being more important for R. The linking of it to J is likely based on the diversity of J around the Zagros and Taurus mountain ranges and its likely this wasn't a homogenous culture given it being distributed from Iraq to Central Asia. It also apparently seems to have contributed to the Hissar Culture.

    Also I have never heard about the IJ* line of the Levant and Anatolia. We have no idea where IJ* originated or its ancient distribution but so far it has only been found in Iran.
    Last edited by newtoboard; 08-09-2013 at 05:54 PM.

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    I think R1b and R1a were not natives and had not been around the Northern Iranian Alborz and the Southern Caspian shores in the Paleolithic and the Mesolithic Eras because they also had never been in the Eastern Caucasus Slopes where we can find the old and basal types of J1's. I think R1 (R1a and R1b) just crossed through the Northern Caspian shores via the steppes where no agriculture or civilization was established in the early Neolithic Age. If R1 (R1b and R1a) had crossed the Iranian Plateau they would had moved with (or at least) would had brought (pick or drag) also some of the Ancient Iranian haplogroups to Eastern and Western Europe, what obviously didn't happen in the same way that we can't find any concentration of R1 in the relic populations of the Caucasus, what possibly can mean that R1 types just crossed the relatively empty corridor of the Northern Steppe towards Europe coming from Central Asia (close to the common ancient origins of haplogroup P-Q) and the Iranian Plateau was the native cradle of haplogroup IJ where the most basal types had been found.

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    As far as I can see the major early splits in the populating of SW Asia and Europe split after F into lines leading to G, then the IJK split that leads to a split that leads to the Europe and SW Asia groups of I and J on the one hand and the second branch that leads ot R, Q and many eastern haplogroups. The impression I get is IJ is potentially old enough to be linked to either Aurigacian or Gravettian elements in the middle east but I is not old enough to have entered Europe until the Gravettain period. So, IJ was probably very old in SW Asia

    its brother K branch led to R, Q, N and many far and SE Asia branches. So there feels like there was a bifurking of the IJK branch in terms of the K branch that leads to R, N, Q and many others having a more easterly feel and IJ having a more SW Asian and later a European feel. IJK is dated on Wiki to about 40000BC while IJ is placed about 35000BC and K is placed at about 45000BC by the same source. Any improved dates from better sources are very welcome. Especially given that source makes K OLDER than its IJK ancestor. A further upstream cousin H branch that leads to G and others is said to date to about 46000BC on wiki. Its most famous subclade G is dated far too imprecisely on wiki.

    The broad picture of that seems to fit

    1. An entry into Eurasia of CF a the beginning of human settlement 50000 years ago largely taking a southern route east bypassing much of SW Asia. This seems to be a very early wave that doesnt relate closely to the later brother branches.

    2. Then a probable more stay-home brother SW Asian brother branch H about 46000BC splitting by 40000BC into the IJK branch on one hand and another branch that later led to G etc on the other.

    3. Shortly after a split into the more stay-home IJ SW Asian branch one the one hand and the K branches that led to several including R ETC.

    4. Then the K branch splitting into what seem to be branches that either stayed in SW Asia but in most cases headed eastwards. In terms of K, the K* branch of that looks likely to me to have been initially a stay-home branch in SW Asia
    i
    5. K's split into main MNOPS (also known as KxLT) into LT have a collective distrubtion that also points to a centre point for K in SW Asia maybe around Iran and fringing central Asia. I

    6. MNOPS led to several branches including NO dated to 30-40000BC that led to N and O which must have headed east across north central Asia and P (which led to R and Q among others).

    7. The P branch of K that ultimately led to R and others also looks like it ran eastwards generally from somewhere like Iran or the west end of north-central Asia. The current position of P* in south-central Asia cannot be considered a safe indicator of the position of the origin of P because of the southward expulsion of the north-central Asian population and also probably upland areas of Iran etc in the LGM. It may give a very broad idea of longitude though. i still suspect a position around Iran and maybe the west of north-central Asia as the starting point of P. The age given on wiki is far too broad to be meaningful

    8. There seems a big gap in time between P and its branches Q and R. . I suspect the distributions and dates point to the impact of the LGM desertification on settlement in the western part of north central Asia. This seems likely to be the source of the splitting in Q and R. It makes sense to see a position for R* somewhere like Turkmenistan and adjacent. Then the worst of the ice age took hold with the area being evacuated, R2 or its immediate ancestor headed south due to and the ancestral lineage of R1 made a shorter move to the Caspian shores. This split might reflect nuances in the positions of different R* groups at the time when the LGM took a grip. R1 would seem to date to the end of the LGM when this were still pretty grim but better climate was just around the corner. So, it must have spent a fair part of the LGM in the state of an R* lineage probably in the south Caspian area, existing at the same time and in parallel to the R2 and other R*people who largely headed much further south (can anyone elaborate on the best route through the mountains for R2 from somewhere like Turkmenistan to India).

    Given the abandonment of north central Asia to a large degree during the LGM cannot expect modern R* forms to reflect the positions held just before the LGM around 24000 to 18000BC The ancesors of R1 were just one R* lineage from perhaps 25000BC to 16500BC when R1 emerged. So, most of the LGM, perhaps it all, was spent in the R* form. In fact the coincidence is almost perfect. Any early R* people in north central Asia would have left fairly early in the existance of R and spent most of the LGM somewhere less hostile like the south Caspian or further south. R* probably has a distribution that partly reflects this abadonment of most of north central Asia and flight south, as of course does the R2 clade which seems to be an older sister branch of R1 that headed towards India during the LGM. R1* only appears at the end of the LGM and probably should partly reflect its position then although unlike R*, it at least soon after its period of coming into existance had a theoretical chance to expand north from a likely starting point in the south Caspian. This was caused by the end of the LGM.

    However, this would have been hugely complicated by the sudden enormous expansion of the Caspian that happened c. 15000-10000BC and was especially dramtic in the first couple of millenium when it presented a massive water barrier of cascading seas stretching from Bulgaria to beyond the Aral Sea. It also seems to me that the R1* phase was very short compared to the R* phase and that R1a and b quickly followed R1*, possibly limiting the latters impact. which particularly would have e that might be a short phase before R1a and b emerged. So, it seems to me that late R1* and early R1a and b would have all potentially faced that massive water barrier.

    It is possible that they could have just slipped north between their coming into existence, the warming up period and the massive flood but that seems to have been a narrow window of opportunity. Judging from R1*, 343 and P25* they may not have taken this brief chance to head north - which may not have been at all attractive anyway. One thing to bear in mind is the differences between the hunters on the north and south side of the Caspian. The latter were hunting sheep, goats, deer, the odd tortoise etc. The former were living in treeless steppe-tundra in houses built of mammoth tusks and hunting monsters like the latter. That would not have been an easy shift to make and I imagine pretty frightening. I know, I know, I would have preferred my y ancestor fighting mamoths etc rather than hunting goats and the heroic tortoise hunting lol. So, I personally now doubt any great wish to push north c. 16000BC for the eariest r1a and b groups.

    The especially dramatic boundary to south-north movement caused by the cascading of the inland seas around 15000-13000BC would have made movement from somewhere like Iran, the Caucasus etc impossible without the most epic and insane journeys. The situation changed with the end of the Manych-Kerch spillway at some point around 12 of 13000BC. That date probably provides a bookmark for movement of R groups into Russia. That would slowly have dried out to a degree that it provided what might have been the only dryland route between north and south of the Portic Caspian Aral zonee. That would have allowed groups to pass up the shores of the Black and Caspian Seas on either side of the central Caucauses which were probably a ridiculously formidable barrier in that period which was topped of by the water barrier in the north Caucasus area up to 12/13000BC although I would doubt it became passible immediately and must have been a horrible swampy band for some time after so I personally would doubt this barrier was crossed for some centuries. There is also the climate to take into account and othe push-pull factors.

    In terms of push, it is worth noting that the expansion of the Caspian had only a modest effect on Iran compared to the absolute turmoil and displacement it caused to the north, east and to a lesser degree in the eastern Caucasus. Anyone displaced from the latter had to head south or into the moutains to the west or perhaps into the narrow band between the Meych-Kerch spillway and the high Caucasus. So, I cannot see groups from the south Caspian Iran in particular moving much in this phase.

    Another thing is that in terms of pull factors the hunters in the Iran and parts of the Caucasus area seem to have adapted to the hilly land for a long period hunting sheep, goats etc and I am not convinced they would have been hugely attracted by chilly marshy plains that were rapidly becoming innundated in south Russia and the west of central Asia even if they could have reached them.Finally, the early period of possible crossing including the Younger Dryas which not only made northern areas very cold again but would have made everywhere away from rivers, lakes and seas horribly arid.

    That all makes me think that the most likely earliest period of intrusion of R groups from the south into Russia and adjacent may have been immediately after the Younger Dyas when conditions improved, the sea levels settled down and the environment of the western steppe area improved. I do however also think this happened in pre-farming times and that the P297 was out of the zone of early farming influence from the origin date of the SNP c 9000BC as there is basically no trace of the P297 between then and 5000-3500BC when M73 and M269 arise. That would effectively mean the movement happened c. 9000BC as the Younger Dryas ended.
    Last edited by alan; 08-10-2013 at 05:54 PM.

  8. #6
    F split into G and HIJK not IJK so I think IJ is a bit more eastern than previously thought.

    Not sure how you think H is SW Asian or am I misunderstanding your second point?
    Last edited by newtoboard; 08-10-2013 at 06:32 PM.

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    I am actually surprised how looking at the detail of the environment, seas, archaeology, variance dating and populations genetics really does suggest that R* may have originated just before the LGM among hunters in the countries immediately east of the Caspian and R1* may have originated at the end of the LGM among thoseof the former group who had legged it to the south Caspian. After that possibilities and push-pull factors may have been very limited for a northward movement until 9000BC but just at that time P297* moved north. It is possible to argue that it was even later but earlier seem unlikely to me unless modern patterns and extinctions of lineages has hugely distorted things. In terms of later periods, I dont think we can place P297 in Anatolia or anywhere south or west of that as they recieved farming too early to correpond to the non-existant imprint of P297 from 9000BC until the period 5000-3500BC when M73, M269 and L23 emerged after the big sleep. It also seem counter to the logic of the rest of the model using modern distribtions to place P297 in an area where its earliest subclade doesnt exist such as Iran. M73 dates to 5000BC which is pretty well the time farming spreads to northern and north plateau Iran as well as the north Caucasus. However, there is basically zero M73 in Iran and none except in Turkic groups in the north Caucasus. Also none in the south Caucasus. So, its very tempting to simply rule out those areas as the area where P297 was hiding in the 4000 years between that SNPs existance and that of M73. The process of elimination suggests to me that P297 is indeed the R1b clade that headed north from the south Caspian (where it ancestors had lived since the LGM) before the farming revolution effected the southern areas. This pretty well, assuming variance estimates are reasonable correct, had to have happened between the period of the P297 SNP c. 9000BC and the rise of M73 c. 5000BC. I would refine that further though because it really looks like P297 had flown the nest north before farming started to penetrate areas like north Iran plateau, the north Caucasus etc, areas which have practically no M73 anyway. So, I would further refine that move to almost having to have taken place some time between 9000 and 6000BC. I would further feel that its not due to an intrusion of farmers give the lack of any P297* which we should see in the period 9000-5000BC if it was doing well.

    I think we may be looking for an epipalaeolithic or Mesolithic cultural intrusion into south Russia from somewhere around the south Caspian and adjacent in the period 9000-6000BC. However it is not absolutely impossible that a little P25* could have died out in a population of hunters that was barely reproducing itself so I dont think we can totally could have enterred in that form and gave birth to P297 in situ. That could push the date back a little. There was at least the possibility for a clade like P25* that existed from perhaps 14000BC to cross into Russia via the Caucasus from maybe 12000BC. The relationship of such a movement to the younger dryas c. 11000BC to 9500BC is hard to work out. P25* might have just slipped in to the north as the route oppend up but before that cold snap. So, broadly I think we are looking at an intrusion into the north from the south Caspian or adjacent either in P25* form just before the Younger dyas c. 12-11000BC or some time after the YD which ended about the time P297 arose c. 9000BC.

    The problem with ruling out the earlier window of opportunity on the grounds of a lack of P25* in the north is that this lack is also true of P297* everywhere. So its a potential problem for this attempt to bookend it and all sorts of scenarios could be imagined. It actually seems an unfortunate rule of thumb that the hunter gatherer period can often basically leave almost zero trail of their earlier generations. That seems to have happened to P297 and there is no reason to suppose it wouldnt have happened earlier.

    That is where the doubt to this model, based to an extent on modern population studies as it is. That is where it could be badly out. So, these doubts are worth exploring a little. Rewinding a bit in time, it seems fair enough to say that R*was probably in central Asia and driven south to both places like India as R2. There is little doubt that the LGM's desertification effect in north central Asiao and its effect on R* and early R2 fits well. The real question is where it went to. South and west to the Caspian seems logical but can we rule out that central Asian R* didnt also move north into the also settled steppe tundra area on the north side of the sea. The Caspian was a lot smaller than today during the LGM. Is it possible that the whole sequence from R* to R1* to R1b/a happened in the north in the period 25000BC to 15000BC but they all died out. That would also of course require leaking out of R1* and early R1b and a subclades south for some reason that would need explained. I cannot see any evidence of the sort of north-south movements that would cause these early clades to spill south. During the period when R1 was coming into being at the end of the LGM the small Caspian would not have been a major barrier and easier to move around it. However, around the expected time for R1a and R1b's early days the main process effecting populations would be the relentless driving of the shores outwards, presumably pushing populations far to the north and east rather than south. Its also true that the channel that linked the Caspian and Black Sea appeared around the time of this flooding and warming phase. That again would create a barrier c. 15000BC to 12000BC give or take i.e. the same barrier would have prevented north-south movement as south-north. Again this only seems to have freed up by 12000BC. So, its unlikely that early R1b clades could have even theoretically moved south from an unlikely hypothetical northern location until 12000BC or later. Soon after that was the younger Dryas which I suppose would create a theoretical reason for moving south c. 11000-9500BC. By this period the Caspian was stablising near to its historical size range. However, that is close to the date of P297 and it would seem paradoxical to place a more northern looking clade in the south at that period while imagining P25*, a more southern clade, as being the northern donor. Even allowing for continual line death in the north that is pushing things to an illogically paradoxical conclusion.

    One final observation may be conclusive in elimination the north-south option. That is that northern and north plateau Iran and most of the Caucasus were also very late to recieve farming, apparently between 5000BC and 6000BC. So, it is only fair to say that those areas were also subject to the same sort of conditions for lineage survival as the north side of the Caspian and the steppes until perhaps 5000BC. So, it probably unfair to think that farming has preserved early lineages in places like northern Iran or the Caucasus when farming was very late. So, on balance it seems easier to interpret the Iranian evidence, with its fairly high amount of early R1b clades compared to the steppes as a genuine reflection of where early R1b, R1 and almost certainly R1a probably arose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    F split into G and HIJK not IJK so I think IJ is a bit more eastern than previously thought.

    Not sure how you think H is SW Asian or am I misunderstanding your second point?
    Think I was getting out of my comfort zone going that far upstream. Was just trying to see how the Eurasian haplogroups connect back to the very beginnings. They seem to not have a clue about F. My impression from what is said about the paragroup is it lightly travelled all over making its origin really unknown.

    WIKI STATES

    This megahaplogroup contains mainly lineages that are not typically found in sub-Saharan Africa, suggesting that its ancestral haplogroup CF may have been carried out of Africa very early in the modern human diaspora, and F-M89 may have appeared 48,000 (38,700-55,700) years ago, probably in Eurasia.[1]

    According to the phylogeographic distribution of haplotypes observed among South Asian populations defined by social and linguistic criteria, the possibility arose of haplogroup F might have originated in or near India, and F-M89* might share a common demographic history with H-M69, C5, R2 and L1.[4] The presence of several subclusters of F-M89 and K that are largely restricted to the Indian subcontinent is consistent with the scenario that a coastal (southern route) of early human migration out of Africa carried ancestral Eurasian lineages first to the coast of the Indian subcontinent, or that some of them originated there.[5]

    Other sources mention that this ancient haplogroup may have first appeared in North Africa, the Levant, or the Arabian Peninsula as much as 50,000 years ago (50,3006500).[6] It is sometimes believed to represent a "second-wave" of expansion out of Africa. However, the location of this lineage's first expansion and rise to prevalence appears to have been in South Asia or somewhere close to it within the extended Middle East. All of Haplogroup F's descendant haplogroups also show a pattern of radiation from South Asia (haplogroups H, F* and K) or the Middle East (haplogroups G and IJ).

    Several lineages derived from Haplogroup F-M89 appear to have migrated into Africa from a homeland in Southwest Asia sometime during prehistory. Y-chromosome haplogroups associated with this hypothetical "Back to Africa" migration include J, R1b, and T


    I plumped for SW Asia simply based on the geography of the next downstream and the basic out of Africa flow aspect further upstream. However, I dont have a clue that far upsteam and was just trying to work through it in my head. Still, F is important as the ancestor of HIJK and G. It would be really interesting if our distant ancestors were part of an early out of Africa wave by a southern route that reached India before heading north. I hadnt ever thought about that far upstream. I had always really just assumed it was via the Levant into the middle east then central Asia then somehow west again into Europe. Might explain my love for Indian food :0)
    Last edited by alan; 08-10-2013 at 09:52 PM.

  12. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I am actually surprised how looking at the detail of the environment, seas, archaeology, variance dating and populations genetics really does suggest that R* may have originated just before the LGM among hunters in the countries immediately east of the Caspian and R1* may have originated at the end of the LGM among thoseof the former group who had legged it to the south Caspian. After that possibilities and push-pull factors may have been very limited for a northward movement until 9000BC but just at that time P297* moved north. It is possible to argue that it was even later but earlier seem unlikely to me unless modern patterns and extinctions of lineages has hugely distorted things. In terms of later periods, I dont think we can place P297 in Anatolia or anywhere south or west of that as they recieved farming too early to correpond to the non-existant imprint of P297 from 9000BC until the period 5000-3500BC when M73, M269 and L23 emerged after the big sleep. It also seem counter to the logic of the rest of the model using modern distribtions to place P297 in an area where its earliest subclade doesnt exist such as Iran. M73 dates to 5000BC which is pretty well the time farming spreads to northern and north plateau Iran as well as the north Caucasus. However, there is basically zero M73 in Iran and none except in Turkic groups in the north Caucasus. Also none in the south Caucasus. So, its very tempting to simply rule out those areas as the area where P297 was hiding in the 4000 years between that SNPs existance and that of M73. The process of elimination suggests to me that P297 is indeed the R1b clade that headed north from the south Caspian (where it ancestors had lived since the LGM) before the farming revolution effected the southern areas. This pretty well, assuming variance estimates are reasonable correct, had to have happened between the period of the P297 SNP c. 9000BC and the rise of M73 c. 5000BC. I would refine that further though because it really looks like P297 had flown the nest north before farming started to penetrate areas like north Iran plateau, the north Caucasus etc, areas which have practically no M73 anyway. So, I would further refine that move to almost having to have taken place some time between 9000 and 6000BC. I would further feel that its not due to an intrusion of farmers give the lack of any P297* which we should see in the period 9000-5000BC if it was doing well.

    I think we may be looking for an epipalaeolithic or Mesolithic cultural intrusion into south Russia from somewhere around the south Caspian and adjacent in the period 9000-6000BC. However it is not absolutely impossible that a little P25* could have died out in a population of hunters that was barely reproducing itself so I dont think we can totally could have enterred in that form and gave birth to P297 in situ. That could push the date back a little. There was at least the possibility for a clade like P25* that existed from perhaps 14000BC to cross into Russia via the Caucasus from maybe 12000BC. The relationship of such a movement to the younger dryas c. 11000BC to 9500BC is hard to work out. P25* might have just slipped in to the north as the route oppend up but before that cold snap. So, broadly I think we are looking at an intrusion into the north from the south Caspian or adjacent either in P25* form just before the Younger dyas c. 12-11000BC or some time after the YD which ended about the time P297 arose c. 9000BC.

    The problem with ruling out the earlier window of opportunity on the grounds of a lack of P25* in the north is that this lack is also true of P297* everywhere. So its a potential problem for this attempt to bookend it and all sorts of scenarios could be imagined. It actually seems an unfortunate rule of thumb that the hunter gatherer period can often basically leave almost zero trail of their earlier generations. That seems to have happened to P297 and there is no reason to suppose it wouldnt have happened earlier.

    That is where the doubt to this model, based to an extent on modern population studies as it is. That is where it could be badly out. So, these doubts are worth exploring a little. Rewinding a bit in time, it seems fair enough to say that R*was probably in central Asia and driven south to both places like India as R2. There is little doubt that the LGM's desertification effect in north central Asiao and its effect on R* and early R2 fits well. The real question is where it went to. South and west to the Caspian seems logical but can we rule out that central Asian R* didnt also move north into the also settled steppe tundra area on the north side of the sea. The Caspian was a lot smaller than today during the LGM. Is it possible that the whole sequence from R* to R1* to R1b/a happened in the north in the period 25000BC to 15000BC but they all died out. That would also of course require leaking out of R1* and early R1b and a subclades south for some reason that would need explained. I cannot see any evidence of the sort of north-south movements that would cause these early clades to spill south. During the period when R1 was coming into being at the end of the LGM the small Caspian would not have been a major barrier and easier to move around it. However, around the expected time for R1a and R1b's early days the main process effecting populations would be the relentless driving of the shores outwards, presumably pushing populations far to the north and east rather than south. Its also true that the channel that linked the Caspian and Black Sea appeared around the time of this flooding and warming phase. That again would create a barrier c. 15000BC to 12000BC give or take i.e. the same barrier would have prevented north-south movement as south-north. Again this only seems to have freed up by 12000BC. So, its unlikely that early R1b clades could have even theoretically moved south from an unlikely hypothetical northern location until 12000BC or later. Soon after that was the younger Dryas which I suppose would create a theoretical reason for moving south c. 11000-9500BC. By this period the Caspian was stablising near to its historical size range. However, that is close to the date of P297 and it would seem paradoxical to place a more northern looking clade in the south at that period while imagining P25*, a more southern clade, as being the northern donor. Even allowing for continual line death in the north that is pushing things to an illogically paradoxical conclusion.

    One final observation may be conclusive in elimination the north-south option. That is that northern and north plateau Iran and most of the Caucasus were also very late to recieve farming, apparently between 5000BC and 6000BC. So, it is only fair to say that those areas were also subject to the same sort of conditions for lineage survival as the north side of the Caspian and the steppes until perhaps 5000BC. So, it probably unfair to think that farming has preserved early lineages in places like northern Iran or the Caucasus when farming was very late. So, on balance it seems easier to interpret the Iranian evidence, with its fairly high amount of early R1b clades compared to the steppes as a genuine reflection of where early R1b, R1 and almost certainly R1a probably arose.
    Glad to see we finally agree on something.

    It actually looks the southern part of Iran received farming first (especially if Mehrgarh is dated to 7000 BC and considering the lack of typical North Iranian lineages in the South Asian and South Central Asian gene pool).

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to newtoboard For This Useful Post:

     TigerMW (08-12-2013)

  14. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Think I was getting out of my comfort zone going that far upstream. Was just trying to see how the Eurasian haplogroups connect back to the very beginnings. They seem to not have a clue about F. My impression from what is said about the paragroup is it lightly travelled all over making its origin really unknown.

    WIKI STATES

    This megahaplogroup contains mainly lineages that are not typically found in sub-Saharan Africa, suggesting that its ancestral haplogroup CF may have been carried out of Africa very early in the modern human diaspora, and F-M89 may have appeared 48,000 (38,700-55,700) years ago, probably in Eurasia.[1]

    According to the phylogeographic distribution of haplotypes observed among South Asian populations defined by social and linguistic criteria, the possibility arose of haplogroup F might have originated in or near India, and F-M89* might share a common demographic history with H-M69, C5, R2 and L1.[4] The presence of several subclusters of F-M89 and K that are largely restricted to the Indian subcontinent is consistent with the scenario that a coastal (southern route) of early human migration out of Africa carried ancestral Eurasian lineages first to the coast of the Indian subcontinent, or that some of them originated there.[5]

    Other sources mention that this ancient haplogroup may have first appeared in North Africa, the Levant, or the Arabian Peninsula as much as 50,000 years ago (50,3006500).[6] It is sometimes believed to represent a "second-wave" of expansion out of Africa. However, the location of this lineage's first expansion and rise to prevalence appears to have been in South Asia or somewhere close to it within the extended Middle East. All of Haplogroup F's descendant haplogroups also show a pattern of radiation from South Asia (haplogroups H, F* and K) or the Middle East (haplogroups G and IJ).

    Several lineages derived from Haplogroup F-M89 appear to have migrated into Africa from a homeland in Southwest Asia sometime during prehistory. Y-chromosome haplogroups associated with this hypothetical "Back to Africa" migration include J, R1b, and T


    I plumped for SW Asia simply based on the geography of the next downstream and the basic out of Africa flow aspect further upstream. However, I dont have a clue that far upsteam and was just trying to work through it in my head. Still, F is important as the ancestor of HIJK and G. It would be really interesting if our distant ancestors were part of an early out of Africa wave by a southern route that reached India before heading north. I hadnt ever thought about that far upstream. I had always really just assumed it was via the Levant into the middle east then central Asia then somehow west again into Europe. Might explain my love for Indian food :0)
    I wonder if both HIJK and G both originated from F in South Central Asia. It seems likely K and then LT originates in Central Asia rather than the old theory of L migrating east. I do recall some theories on G originating near the Hindu Kush mountains.

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