Page 2 of 82 FirstFirst 12341252 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 815

Thread: DF99 (P312>DF99)

  1. #11
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,219
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Ethnicity
    British-Scandinavian
    Y-DNA
    R1b-DF99
    mtDNA
    J2a1a

    England Denmark Wales Scotland Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by brianlm1 View Post
    Is it one I should test for?
    I happen to know Brian has already tested negative for L21, U152, DF27 and DF19, and is currently in the P312** group. So yes, DF99 is something you should test for.

    What we don't know at this point is how many of those currently in the P312** group will turn out to be DF99. I have little doubt that the P312** group is fairly diverse in both distribution and STR varieties, but one can't rule out an old umbrella SNP that they all share, rather like DF27, which includes many diverse subclades.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 08-12-2013 at 05:26 PM.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to GoldenHind For This Useful Post:

     Telfermagne (08-12-2013)

  3. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,841
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R1b
    mtDNA
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    IMO, not much has changed since 2010. In academic studies, L21, U152 and U106 are being found exactly where they were expected to be found with frequencies that were expected with a few percentage points higher or lower.

    As for a shift north/east for an L11 origin, the chances become more unlikely with every new ancient DNA result. This is especially true with Corded Ware samples where R1b is still absent in German and Polish samples (R1a, I/J and G). Clearly the front-runner of an L11 origin in the north is still the Low Countries with Dutch Bell Beaker, but we are then considering a NW origin, not NE. Unfortunately it is impossible to tell based on frequency and/or phylogeny and the heavy testing bias is as big now as its ever been (75K isles kits versus 1K Austrians, 2K Swiss, 4K Italian, 4K French, 5K Iberian, etc.
    Particularly since L11* is lightly scattered, I have a hard time even contemplating where L11 is from. I guess I was leaning to somewhere along the L51xL11 trail that you've drawn up and I'm particularly interested in Tyrol, Austria because of L51xL11, Alpine orientation and proximity to the Danube.

    I hadn't really thought much about the Low Countries but it is a nice, central maritime location as far as Beaker folks go. It would make it easier to consider U106 originating on the Baltic side of the Jutland rathern than some kind of L11* route all the way from Portugal. Is there something about the Rhenish Bell Beaker folks anthropology or the Beaker expansions that have you leaning towards this?

    I am assuming Rhenish and Dutch Bell Beakers are the same thing, right?
    Last edited by Mikewww; 08-12-2013 at 07:20 PM.

  4. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,841
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R1b
    mtDNA
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeww
    DF19 may be larger than we think but it won't be as large as U152, L21 or DF27.
    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I'm pretty sure I agree (although it might depend on how large you think, vs. I think, DF19 is)...
    That's actually a typo but it doesn't matter. I don't see how either DF99 or DF19 can be close to as high in frequency as U152, L21 or DF27. There's just not that much left over of P312 to be DF99, DF19 or L238 after you we test out U152, L21 and DF27 completely. This is why I call them the Big Three.

    That was only point I was trying to make - IMO, it's still wise to test U152, L21 and DF27 before testing DF99, DF19 and L238. Of course, if you have a match with someone who is positive for one of these, by all means, test that first, but without any matching logic I think P312 people need to consider the Big Three first.

    This is just off the cuff, but among the Big Three, again without matching information, the sequence might depend on the MDKA geography. L21 is most likely in the Isles and NW France. U152 from lower Denmark down through Italy. SW France and Iberia P312'ers should probably test DF27, first. Scandinavia, in general, I don't know. Its anybody's guess.

  5. #14
    Registered Users
    Posts
    63
    Sex
    Location
    Sheffield
    Y-DNA
    R-M222

    England Scotland Netherlands Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I will verify with @AndyG, but two L238 samples are DF99- and four DF99+ samples are L238-, so I think the likelihood of them being on the same branch is highly unlikely, unless of course there is missing data somewhere in all six of these samples.
    I think you are right. I would prioritise testing for P312* folk.
    By the way Jim Wilson tells me that DF99 is on his new custom chip (from Britains DNA) but it will go by a different name. S-"something".

  6. #15
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,494
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Particularly since L11* is lightly scattered, I have a hard time even contemplating where L11 is from. I guess I was leaning to somewhere along the L51xL11 trail that you've drawn up and I'm particularly interested in Tyrol, Austria because of L51xL11, Alpine orientation and proximity to the Danube.

    I hadn't really thought much about the Low Countries but it is a nice, central maritime location as far as Beaker folks go. It would make it easier to consider U106 originating on the Baltic side of the Jutland rathern than some kind of L11* route all the way from Portugal. Is there something about the Rhenish Bell Beaker folks anthropology or the Beaker expansions that have you leaning towards this?

    I am assuming Rhenish and Dutch Bell Beakers are the same thing, right?
    I still think the likeliest path is through the Alps, but of all of the L11 areas in the northern regions, the mouth of the Rhine does seem to have a nice diversity of subclades. This plays well into the BB Dutch model that claims an expansion from there to the rest of Europe. Not my first choice, but perhaps my second.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  7. #16
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,730
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA
    DF27, FGC15733
    mtDNA
    T2f3

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    [/B]

    IMO, not much has changed since 2010. In academic studies, L21, U152 and U106 are being found exactly where they were expected to be found with frequencies that were expected with a few percentage points higher or lower.
    I was referring to the specific naming of these other clades under discussion. In 2010 millions of guys would have been P312* (had millions of them tested, but as it was, their relatives were P312*); SRY2627 and M153 were way higher on the tree than they belonged, by virtue of having been discovered. That sort of thing. The recent fine tuning or differentiation within L21, and Mike's other Big Two, has helped a lot with the geographical picture. And IMO L11 in general looks less Mediterranean all the time -- but I freely admit, my opinion is not especially weighty. Whether L11 is as eastern as I suspect or as western as you do remains to be seen. Mouth of the Rhine, Alps, whatever; I believe we are being weaned a bit from Italy and Portugal, and I believe that's a step in the right direction. Perhaps, too long a step -- and perhaps, not long enough.

  8. #17
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    968
    Sex
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ethnicity
    100% European
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    DF27>CTS4065>FG23196
    mtDNA
    U5a1a2a

    United States of America United Kingdom Germany Ireland Scotland Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I still think the likeliest path is through the Alps, but of all of the L11 areas in the northern regions, the mouth of the Rhine does seem to have a nice diversity of subclades. This plays well into the BB Dutch model that claims an expansion from there to the rest of Europe. Not my first choice, but perhaps my second.
    I like the Rhine Delta myself. Danube to Rhine. Rhine to the North Sea.

  9. #18
    Registered Users
    Posts
    18
    Sex
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Nationality
    Australian
    Y-DNA
    R-BY15454+
    mtDNA
    K1c1

    G'day Mike,
    Yes I have tested negative to all of the SNPs that are listed in your reply.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Have you tested for U152, L21 and DF27. Odds are more likely you'll be one of those three than DF99 but DF99 is definitely an option for P312+ U152- L21- DF27- people. Of course, DF19 and L238 are also options. DF19 may be larger than we think but it won't be as large as U152, L21 or DF27.

  10. #19
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,219
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Ethnicity
    British-Scandinavian
    Y-DNA
    R1b-DF99
    mtDNA
    J2a1a

    England Denmark Wales Scotland Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I will verify with @AndyG, but two L238 samples are DF99- and four DF99+ samples are L238-, so I think the likelihood of them being on the same branch is highly unlikely, unless of course there is missing data somewhere in all six of these samples.
    Is the coverage of the samples in question sufficient to rule out an unidentified upstream SNP connecting L238 with DF99 and/or DF19? Presumably a connection between L238 and an as yet undiscovered P312 subclade also remains a possibility.

    I for one would be very surprised if there is no SNP between P312 and L238. There are too many aspects of L238 which indicate to me that L238 is much, much younger than P312, and I find it unlikely that no SNP occurred on this line over the lengthy interval between them. I think the only explanation could be that L238 is much older than it appears and that an extraordinary bottleneck took place.

  11. #20
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,494
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    Is the coverage of the samples in question sufficient to rule out an unidentified upstream SNP connecting L238 with DF99 and/or DF19? Presumably a connection between L238 and an as yet undiscovered P312 subclade also remains a possibility.

    I for one would be very surprised if there is no SNP between P312 and L238. There are too many aspects of L238 which indicate to me that L238 is much, much younger than P312, and I find it unlikely that no SNP occurred on this line over the lengthy interval between them. I think the only explanation could be that L238 is much older than it appears and that an extraordinary bottleneck took place.
    The answer is yes, DF99 is on a separate branch from both L238 and DF19.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

Page 2 of 82 FirstFirst 12341252 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •