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Thread: DF99 (P312>DF99)

  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    As you probably know, FGC847 constitutes one of three known subclades of DF99, It is currently divided into two separate groups, those who are also positive for FGC864 and those who are negative for it. FGC864 is further divided into two divisions- those who are also positive for BY21728 and those who are negative for it. The person who claims descent from a Domesday tenant is in the latter group ((ie BY21728-). I don't think FTDNA offers testing for BY21728 outside the Big Y.

    The FGC847>FGC864 group has a fairly strong STR signature, which you match, which is why your result didn't surprise me. However the signature appears to apply to both subclades of FGC864, so I can't predict whether you are positive or negative for BY21728.
    I guess I missed this one, so what is the Norman connection again. In previious conversations, I made the point that many of the Brisitsh folks on the DF99 list had Anglo-Norman names or appeared to be having conenction the the continent.
    FTDNA: West and Central Europe 96%
    Eurogenes Global 25: German 26.4%, French 18.4%, Belgian 16.6%
    Eurogenes K13: French 37.8%, West and East German 7.8%, South and North Dutch 7.6%
    Eurogenes K36: French North West 47.8%, Swiss German and Rheinland-Pfalz 8%, French North East 4.8%
    MDLP K16: German 50%, French 18.6%, French East 8.2%
    MDLP K22: German South 21.4%, , French 6.4%, Swiss 5.2%

  2. #632
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    Please see this link. It appears sample CL94 of this study is DF99.



    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-Paleoge/page2

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  4. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theconqueror View Post
    I guess I missed this one, so what is the Norman connection again. In previious conversations, I made the point that many of the Brisitsh folks on the DF99 list had Anglo-Norman names or appeared to be having conenction the the continent.
    Your family is the best evidence we have of a connection between DF99 and Normandy. There is also a DF99 from England who claims to be descended from a tenant in chief in Domesday Book (1086) named Walter fitz Other. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the claimed descent, but that man was clearly a Norman, based on both his name and status. There are other DF99 men of English origin whose surnames derive from Old French personal names, which could but does not necessarily indicate a Norman origin. A number have surnames derived from English place names, a practice common with Normans who adopted the name of their English manors for their surname, but again this is hardly conclusive, as not every person with an English place name for a surname is of Norman origin.

    There is also a family from Devon in England whose surname according to Reaney drives from the French nickname "bon couer." Their markers and matches makes it highly probable they are DF99. The only one who has tested to 67 markers is a 64/67 match with a known DF99.

    I can say that outside of Normandy, DF99 currently appears to be extremely rare in France. The only other DF99 man from France found to date is a French national with ancestry from Savoy, near the borders with Switzerland and northern Italy. I expect there is more there, but I think is highly likely to be extremely rare.

    In summary I would say that there is a intriguing possibility that some of the DF99 in England could be of Norman origin.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 02-22-2018 at 01:47 AM.

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  6. #634
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    A new and very interesting DF99 in today from the M343 R1b backbone test, although something of a head scratcher. He is a Ukrainian national with ancestry to the 18C in the central Ukrainian district of Poltava. He has no matches at 37 markers and only one at 25, but does have the characteristic 12 at DYS389-1. Yet another indication of the more eastern orientation of DF99 compared to other P312 subclades.

    Perhaps a descendant of a Swedish Viking or an early medieval migrant from Germany? Or could it be an indication of a presence of DF99 among Corded Ware, which to date appears to be almost entirely R1a?

    He has joined the P312 Project, but is not yet in the DF99 project. I will contact him and ask him to join.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; Yesterday at 08:04 PM.

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  8. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Please see this link. It appears sample CL94 of this study is DF99.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-Paleoge/page2
    My thanks to Webb for pointing this out. I have taken some time to investigate this before replying. The link supplied by Webb is to a thread on this forum discussing a recent genetic study of two ancient Lombard graveyards from Pannonia in modern Hungary and Collegno near Turin in Piedmont, northern Italy. To my knowledge this may be the first study of ancient DNA study which actually tested for the DF99 marker. It is certainly the first to find it.

    The study is entitled, "Understanding the 6th Century Barbarian Social Organization and Migration through Paleogenetics."

    I have read through the comments posted on the thread on this forum, and also delved into the study itself, which is quite lengthy (the supplementary material alone runs to over 150 pages and is filled with various charts and graphs), to see what information I could glean about the DF99 man.

    The Lombards or Langobards were an ancient East Germanic tribe which conquered northern Italy during the late 6th century AD., during the period known as the Migration Age. The province of Lombardy is named for them. Historical sources, whose accuracy has been questioned, maintain they migrated south from a location east of the Elbe river in northern Germany, first to Pannonia and then to northern Italy in the late 6th century. At the time the area was under the control of the Ostrogoths, another East Germanic tribe which had arrived a few centuries earlier.

    Genetic testing of the remains identified one of the individuals interred in the Collegno cemetery as having YDNA DF99; they use the alternate name for the SNP, S11987. He is identified in the study as CL94, and was found in the earliest phase (570-590 AD) of this multi-generation burial ground. Isotopic studies established that he was clearly not of local origin, but the study apparently doesn't specify from where he may have come. Someone on this forum noted he appears to have been of "highish" status, but the only mention I could find in the study itself said his was one of the graves where there were indications of disturbance and the grave goods found may not be representative of those originally interred in the burial.

    The results of the admixture ancestry comparison for this individual are somewhat puzzling, and to keep this post from being over lengthy, I will report the finding in a further post at a later date.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; Today at 06:31 PM.

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