DF99 (P312>DF99)

[VinceT]

DF99 defines a new branch under P312

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-P312-Project/message/6036


The defining SNP is C8829491A and was found in NA20783 and HG02008, from
Tuscany and Peru, and has also been confirmed in at least one British sample.

[GoldenHind]

DF99 defines a new branch under P312

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-P312-Project/message/6036


The defining SNP is C8829491A and was found in NA20783 and HG02008, from
Tuscany and Peru, and has also been confirmed in at least one British sample.

Excellent news! If it has been found in Tuscany, Peru and Britain, it must truly be old and widespread. Now we just need to get some company to offer testing for it.

[TigerMW]

It looks like our fine citizen-scientists have struck again. With geographic samples that include Tuscany, Peru and the British Isles, I think we have to consider that DF99 is widespread and could be quite old.

It deserves its own thread.

[brianlm1]

Is it one I should test for?

[TigerMW]

I have received clarification of what we know about DF99's positioning.

Yes you are correct. DF99 is parallel to L21, U152, DF27 and DF19 underneath of
P312.

Looking at the data, DF99 could conceivably be upstream of L238, but
unfortunately I don't have any L238 samples to test

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R...t/message/6039

An L238 person needs to test for DF99 before we know for sure DF99's position, but it could either upstream of L238 or parallel. We already know it is parallel to U152, L21, DF27 and DF19.

[TigerMW]

Is it one I should test for?

Have you tested for U152, L21 and DF27. Odds are more likely you'll be one of those three than DF99 but DF99 is definitely an option for P312+ U152- L21- DF27- people. Of course, DF19 and L238 are also options. DF19 may be larger than we think but it won't be as large as U152, L21 or DF27.

[R.Rocca]

I will verify with @AndyG, but two L238 samples are DF99- and four DF99+ samples are L238-, so I think the likelihood of them being on the same branch is highly unlikely, unless of course there is missing data somewhere in all six of these samples.

[rms2]

DF99, an easy SNP to remember, with its own theme song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVjCag8XoHQ

[razyn]

DF19 may be larger than we think but it won't be as large as U152, L21 or DF27.

I'm pretty sure I agree (although it might depend on how large you think, vs. I think, DF19 is). What may become more interesting, as these other high-level branches of P312 get identified, is the variance and age of several clades (including DF27, DF19, L238 and now DF99) that are all but untouched in academic studies to date. My impression is that the implied geographical information about the origin and diffusion of Mr. L11 and his patrilineal descendants is being shifted northward and eastward. Probably someone else is getting a completely different impression; anyway, it's interesting to watch. FUN to watch, really. A couple of years ago, large areas within Europe that happened not to be rich in L21, U152 and/or U106 were genetic terra incognita. That's changing rapidly.

[R.Rocca]

I'm pretty sure I agree (although it might depend on how large you think, vs. I think, DF19 is). What may become more interesting, as these other high-level branches of P312 get identified, is the variance and age of several clades (including DF27, DF19, L238 and now DF99) that are all but untouched in academic studies to date. My impression is that the implied geographical information about the origin and diffusion of Mr. L11 and his patrilineal descendants is being shifted northward and eastward. Probably someone else is getting a completely different impression; anyway, it's interesting to watch. FUN to watch, really. A couple of years ago, large areas within Europe that happened not to be rich in L21, U152 and/or U106 were genetic terra incognita. That's changing rapidly.

IMO, not much has changed since 2010. In academic studies, L21, U152 and U106 are being found exactly where they were expected to be found with frequencies that were expected with a few percentage points higher or lower.

As for a shift north/east for an L11 origin, the chances become more unlikely with every new ancient DNA result. This is especially true with Corded Ware samples where R1b is still absent in German and Polish samples (R1a, I/J and G). Clearly the front-runner of an L11 origin in the north is still the Low Countries with Dutch Bell Beaker, but we are then considering a NW origin, not NE. Unfortunately it is impossible to tell based on frequency and/or phylogeny and the heavy testing bias is as big now as its ever been (75K isles kits versus 1K Austrians, 2K Swiss, 4K Italian, 4K French, 5K Iberian, etc.