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Thread: Sephardic or Imazighen Jews matching sharing segments with Ashkenazi Jews

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    Sephardic or Imazighen Jews matching sharing segments with Ashkenazi Jews

    Can someone explain to me how it's possible that sephardic Jewish kits match with Ashkenazi Jews? Last month I learned my mother (she has Imazighen Jewish ancestry) matches with alot of Ashkenazi Jews at Gedmatch. This made me conclude there must have been an Ashkenazi Jewish ancestor in our family tree. Some persons told me thats not necessarily the case and that Sephardic Jews share DNA segments with the Ashkenazim. That I understand, ofcourse. They both descend of the same people from the Middle-East, but this is like 2000 years ago. How is it possible to genetically match this strong with people while the shared ancestors are from more then 1000 years back? Can this really make you match to more then 90 Ashkenazi Jews?

    Another question; Is there someone with or who knows someone with a sephardic Jewish kit @ Gedmatch that doesn't have any Ashkenazi ancestors? I would like to see if other Sephardic Jews match to this many Ashkenazim also.
    Dutch Northener / Afro-Surinamese / Imazighen Jew

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    Quite a number of Sephardic Jews dispersed into Northern and Northeastern Europe after they were expelled from Spain in 1492, resulting in a more recent shared ancestry.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephar...Migrations.jpg

    Edit: This is a Tunisian Jewish kit from a genetic research program.
    T892307
    Last edited by Nive1526; 09-27-2017 at 12:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nive1526 View Post
    Quite a number of Sephardic Jews dispersed into Northern and Northeastern Europe after they were expelled from Spain in 1492, resulting in a more recent shared ancestry.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephar...Migrations.jpg

    Edit: This is a Tunisian Jewish kit from a genetic research program.
    T892307
    First I want to say thanks for the kit-nr. I will look into that later this day. Second, I don't know if that can be the case in my situation. The Jewish family i come from (da Mesquita) is known to have resided in the Netherlands after coming from Portugal, then got sent to Suriname during the colonial era. Also, when there, they still used their Portuguese surname. Didn't Jews always changed their name into a common sounding name at the place they resided?

    Edit:
    When typing this I suddenly remembered that around the 1800's the Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews became one of the poorest groups in Amsterdam and started to assimilate through marriage. Maybe a sephardic ancestor married an Ashkenazi girl. I still need to check when exactly this took place. Possibly I can find my answer there.

    But I understand that it's not possible to match this close with Ashkenazim if you're 100% sephardic? So a recent Ashkenazi ancestor is required?
    Last edited by Sergi; 09-27-2017 at 01:27 PM.
    Dutch Northener / Afro-Surinamese / Imazighen Jew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergi View Post
    But I understand that it's not possible to match this close with Ashkenazim if you're 100% sephardic? So a recent Ashkenazi ancestor is required?
    Im not so well-read on autosomal matches, my thoughts. 100% Sephardic matching with Ashkenazis is certainly possible due to the sephardic intogression to the Ashkenazim communities and the size of matching segments is mostly dependent on how long ago this event took place.
    Matches amongst Jews also appear to be more recent than they actually are due to endogamy. Ancestral components find together into larger segments more often if closer related descendants mate.
    If I remember your past threads correctly, you have Eastern European ancestors on your paternal? side and match with Ashkenazim of more than 20cM size on most of your chromosomes.
    What are your thoughts having both Ashkenazi and Sephardic or North African Jewish heritage from multiple sources?

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     Sergi (09-27-2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nive1526 View Post
    Im not so well-read on autosomal matches, my thoughts. 100% Sephardic matching with Ashkenazis is certainly possible due to the sephardic intogression to the Ashkenazim communities and the size of matching segments is mostly dependent on how long ago this event took place.
    Matches amongst Jews also appear to be more recent than they actually are due to endogamy. Ancestral components find together into larger segments more often if closer related descendants mate.
    If I remember your past threads correctly, you have Eastern European ancestors on your paternal? side and match with Ashkenazim of more than 20cM size on most of your chromosomes.
    What are your thoughts having both Ashkenazi and Sephardic or North African Jewish heritage from multiple sources?
    Yes... I learned alot more about my family history since then. My father descends of crypto Jews from Russia (Blank family) which is Ashkenazi. I dind't know that back then. But thing is, regardless of my fathers dna, my mothers dna kit matches with ashkenazi Jews but she descends of the Sephardic branch (da Mesquita family). Thats what confused me. My mother also has a little Italian and a trace amount of east-european in her estimate. I thought maybe the eastern-european indicates a little Ashkenazi, but the myheritage specialist I spoke to on the phone told me he leans more towards the assumption that my mother is of Sephardic descend because he, also a sephardic Jew, also has traces of east-europe and italian, but has no eastern-european nor italian ancestors. I find that a little hard to believe though, or I didn't get him correctly (the connection wasn't that wonderful either). I think I'm gonna place my bet on the "sephardic man that married an ashkenazi girl in the 1800's before his descendand got sent to Suriname" theory
    Last edited by Sergi; 09-27-2017 at 03:15 PM.
    Dutch Northener / Afro-Surinamese / Imazighen Jew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nive1526 View Post
    Quite a number of Sephardic Jews dispersed into Northern and Northeastern Europe after they were expelled from Spain in 1492, resulting in a more recent shared ancestry.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephar...Migrations.jpg

    Edit: This is a Tunisian Jewish kit from a genetic research program.
    T892307
    Do sephardic Jews score East-African in myheritage estimates? I mean ethnicities like Kenyan etc?
    Dutch Northener / Afro-Surinamese / Imazighen Jew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergi View Post
    Yes... I learned alot more about my family history since then. My father descends of crypto Jews from Russia (Blank family) which is Ashkenazi. I dind't know that back then. But thing is, regardless of my fathers dna, my mothers dna kit matches with ashkenazi Jews but she descends of the Sephardic branch (da Mesquita family). Thats what confused me. My mother also has a little Italian and a trace amount of east-european in her estimate. I thought maybe the eastern-european indicates a little Ashkenazi, but the myheritage specialist I spoke to on the phone told me he leans more towards the assumption that my mother is of Sephardic descend because he, also a sephardic Jew, also has traces of east-europe and italian, but has no eastern-european nor italian ancestors. I find that a little hard to believe though, or I didn't get him correctly (the connection wasn't that wonderful either). I think I'm gonna place my bet on the "sephardic man that married an ashkenazi girl in the 1800's before his descendand got sent to Suriname" theory
    Your explanation seems more reasonable, but based on the Eastern Euro admixture, not the Italian.
    I would expect both Sephardic and AJ to score Italian, Ashkenazim spent considerable time in Roman-era Italy before crossing the Alps and mediterranean ancestry is hard to disentangle, resulting in Sephardic Iberian ancestry being picked up as Italian. It's more reasonable to assume that only the Eastern Euro is specific to AJ.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sergi View Post
    Do sephardic Jews score East-African in myheritage estimates? I mean ethnicities like Kenyan etc?
    I can't think of a reason why they should. Most of their non European and non-Levantine origin is derived from Berbers.
    Never worked with myheritage or Sephardics though. Please don't assume on my J-M92 I have any elevated knowledge on these topics.

    Do you know any living male descendants of your da Mesquita forefather?
    A genealogist could result in nothing, while the Y-haplogroup always answers at least some questions of your unknown ancestry.
    Last edited by Nive1526; 09-27-2017 at 06:02 PM.

  10. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nive1526 View Post
    Your explanation seems more reasonable, but based on the Eastern Euro admixture, not the Italian.
    I would expect both Sephardic and AJ to score Italian, Ashkenazim spent considerable time in Roman-era Italy before crossing the Alps and mediterranean ancestry is hard to disentangle, resulting in Sephardic Iberian ancestry being picked up as Italian. It's more reasonable to assume that only the Eastern Euro is specific to AJ.




    I can't think of a reason why they should. Most of their non European and non-Levantine origin is derived from Berbers.
    Never worked with myheritage or Sephardics though. Please don't assume on my J-M92 I have any elevated knowledge on these topics.

    Do you know any living male descendants of your da Mesquita forefather?
    A genealogist could result in nothing, while the Y-haplogroup always answers at least some questions of your unknown ancestry.
    No, unfortunetaly. I know someone named de Mesquita that may be related in some way. Or I can ask someone else with that name (guess they're easy to find these days whit all the social media websites). But thats a little too much I think. Approaching strangers saying "Hey, we're probably related! Help me out?".

    I asked if Sephardim score East-African because almost every Sephardim kit I ran the Jtest or EUtest on shows like 3 to 5% East-Africa. My mother also has a little East-African
    Dutch Northener / Afro-Surinamese / Imazighen Jew

  11. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergi View Post
    No, unfortunetaly. I know someone named de Mesquita that may be related in some way. Or I can ask someone else with that name (guess they're easy to find these days whit all the social media websites). But thats a little too much I think. Approaching strangers saying "Hey, we're probably related! Help me out?".
    Another option is to rely on public results, like searching familytreedna projects.
    There's one that lists a "Mesquita" from Portugal as R-SRY2627.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    The easiest thing to google is this:
    site:familytreedna surname

    If ftdna provides the full name, place of residence or the dates of birth and death, sometimes it is possible to fit them into a genealogical tree of yours.
    Otherwise these results are connected to the huge uncertainty of multiple-origin surnames or non-paternity events and therefore more or less useless.

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    Netherlands
    both the Ashkenazi and Sephardi, also Italkim are closely related, probably come together in the Roman age.

    Have you traced back the Sephardic ancestor to Amsterdam? If you need help with the Amsterdam Sephardim, you can ask. Maybe you know:
    - Amsterdam marriages before 1811:
    - specific for Sephardim:
    - funeral registers of the Portuguese Jewish cemetery, Beth Haim.
    Last edited by Pylsteen; 09-27-2017 at 04:10 PM.

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