Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 20

Thread: Sephardic or Imazighen Jews matching sharing segments with Ashkenazi Jews

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    140
    Sex

    Sephardic or Imazighen Jews matching sharing segments with Ashkenazi Jews

    Can someone explain to me how it's possible that sephardic Jewish kits match with Ashkenazi Jews? Last month I learned my mother (she has Imazighen Jewish ancestry) matches with alot of Ashkenazi Jews at Gedmatch. This made me conclude there must have been an Ashkenazi Jewish ancestor in our family tree. Some persons told me thats not necessarily the case and that Sephardic Jews share DNA segments with the Ashkenazim. That I understand, ofcourse. They both descend of the same people from the Middle-East, but this is like 2000 years ago. How is it possible to genetically match this strong with people while the shared ancestors are from more then 1000 years back? Can this really make you match to more then 90 Ashkenazi Jews?

    Another question; Is there someone with or who knows someone with a sephardic Jewish kit @ Gedmatch that doesn't have any Ashkenazi ancestors? I would like to see if other Sephardic Jews match to this many Ashkenazim also.
    Dutch Northener / Afro-Surinamese / Imazighen Jew

  2. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    200
    Sex

    Quite a number of Sephardic Jews dispersed into Northern and Northeastern Europe after they were expelled from Spain in 1492, resulting in a more recent shared ancestry.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephar...Migrations.jpg

    Edit: This is a Tunisian Jewish kit from a genetic research program.
    T892307
    Last edited by Nive1526; 09-27-2017 at 12:05 PM.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Nive1526 For This Useful Post:

     Sergi (09-27-2017)

  4. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    140
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Nive1526 View Post
    Quite a number of Sephardic Jews dispersed into Northern and Northeastern Europe after they were expelled from Spain in 1492, resulting in a more recent shared ancestry.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephar...Migrations.jpg

    Edit: This is a Tunisian Jewish kit from a genetic research program.
    T892307
    First I want to say thanks for the kit-nr. I will look into that later this day. Second, I don't know if that can be the case in my situation. The Jewish family i come from (da Mesquita) is known to have resided in the Netherlands after coming from Portugal, then got sent to Suriname during the colonial era. Also, when there, they still used their Portuguese surname. Didn't Jews always changed their name into a common sounding name at the place they resided?

    Edit:
    When typing this I suddenly remembered that around the 1800's the Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews became one of the poorest groups in Amsterdam and started to assimilate through marriage. Maybe a sephardic ancestor married an Ashkenazi girl. I still need to check when exactly this took place. Possibly I can find my answer there.

    But I understand that it's not possible to match this close with Ashkenazim if you're 100% sephardic? So a recent Ashkenazi ancestor is required?
    Last edited by Sergi; 09-27-2017 at 01:27 PM.
    Dutch Northener / Afro-Surinamese / Imazighen Jew

  5. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    200
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Sergi View Post
    But I understand that it's not possible to match this close with Ashkenazim if you're 100% sephardic? So a recent Ashkenazi ancestor is required?
    I´m not so well-read on autosomal matches, my thoughts. 100% Sephardic matching with Ashkenazis is certainly possible due to the sephardic intogression to the Ashkenazim communities and the size of matching segments is mostly dependent on how long ago this event took place.
    Matches amongst Jews also appear to be more recent than they actually are due to endogamy. Ancestral components find together into larger segments more often if closer related descendants mate.
    If I remember your past threads correctly, you have Eastern European ancestors on your paternal? side and match with Ashkenazim of more than 20cM size on most of your chromosomes.
    What are your thoughts having both Ashkenazi and Sephardic or North African Jewish heritage from multiple sources?

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Nive1526 For This Useful Post:

     Sergi (09-27-2017)

  7. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    140
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Nive1526 View Post
    I´m not so well-read on autosomal matches, my thoughts. 100% Sephardic matching with Ashkenazis is certainly possible due to the sephardic intogression to the Ashkenazim communities and the size of matching segments is mostly dependent on how long ago this event took place.
    Matches amongst Jews also appear to be more recent than they actually are due to endogamy. Ancestral components find together into larger segments more often if closer related descendants mate.
    If I remember your past threads correctly, you have Eastern European ancestors on your paternal? side and match with Ashkenazim of more than 20cM size on most of your chromosomes.
    What are your thoughts having both Ashkenazi and Sephardic or North African Jewish heritage from multiple sources?
    Yes... I learned alot more about my family history since then. My father descends of crypto Jews from Russia (Blank family) which is Ashkenazi. I dind't know that back then. But thing is, regardless of my fathers dna, my mothers dna kit matches with ashkenazi Jews but she descends of the Sephardic branch (da Mesquita family). Thats what confused me. My mother also has a little Italian and a trace amount of east-european in her estimate. I thought maybe the eastern-european indicates a little Ashkenazi, but the myheritage specialist I spoke to on the phone told me he leans more towards the assumption that my mother is of Sephardic descend because he, also a sephardic Jew, also has traces of east-europe and italian, but has no eastern-european nor italian ancestors. I find that a little hard to believe though, or I didn't get him correctly (the connection wasn't that wonderful either). I think I'm gonna place my bet on the "sephardic man that married an ashkenazi girl in the 1800's before his descendand got sent to Suriname" theory
    Last edited by Sergi; 09-27-2017 at 03:15 PM.
    Dutch Northener / Afro-Surinamese / Imazighen Jew

  8. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    659
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Mostly Dutch
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U152>Z56>Z145
    mtDNA
    W5a2

    Netherlands
    both the Ashkenazi and Sephardi, also Italkim are closely related, probably come together in the Roman age.

    Have you traced back the Sephardic ancestor to Amsterdam? If you need help with the Amsterdam Sephardim, you can ask. Maybe you know:
    - Amsterdam marriages before 1811:
    - specific for Sephardim:
    - funeral registers of the Portuguese Jewish cemetery, Beth Haim.
    Last edited by Pylsteen; 09-27-2017 at 04:10 PM.
    Ancestry (approx.): ~88.25% West-European; 6.25% Jewish; ~4.50% Indonesian; ~1.00% (South?)-Indian.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Pylsteen For This Useful Post:

     Sergi (09-27-2017)

  10. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    140
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    both the Ashkenazi and Sephardi, also Italkim are closely related, probably come together in the Roman age.

    Have you traced back the Sephardic ancestor to Amsterdam? If you need help with the Amsterdam Sephardim, you can ask. Maybe you know:
    - Amsterdam marriages before 1811:
    - specific for Sephardim:
    - funeral registers of the Portuguese Jewish cemetery, Beth Haim.

    I know his name was Laurens Aron de Mesquita (the Jewish ancestor in Suriname). Beyond him... Absolutely nothing. Searching if someone from the de Mesquita family married an Ashkenazi girl in the 1800's has no point. It can be a Jew from any Sephardic family, since it does not nessesarily have to be a de Mesquita family member. Maybe a 2/4 Ashkenazi, 2/4 sephardic daughter of this man married a de Mesquita leading to Laurens Aron de Mesquita. Genealogy can be really frustrating at times.

    I will have to hire a genealogist to see if they can find something about the ancestors of L.A. de Mesquita and trace it back to Amsterdam. But as I think you know, as we say in the Netherlands, thats an expensive joke (Dutch saying). But seriously, Surinamese genealogy is very difficult. Some people I know that are of Surinamese descend don't even come further then 4 generations back in their ancestry. I don't own the needed expertise to really dig deep into it. I will have to wait until I can hire this genealogist and until then I will have to be satisfied with knowing the names of only two ancestors that brought Jewishness in our family (Laurens Aron de Mesquita (maternal) and Francina Wijnberg Blank (paternal)) and beyond that having to use my imagination and somewhat vague ethnicity estimates.
    Last edited by Sergi; 09-27-2017 at 04:45 PM.
    Dutch Northener / Afro-Surinamese / Imazighen Jew

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Sergi For This Useful Post:

     Pylsteen (09-27-2017)

  12. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    659
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Mostly Dutch
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U152>Z56>Z145
    mtDNA
    W5a2

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Sergi View Post
    No, I don't know his name. I will hire a genealogist to see if they can find something, but as I think you know, as we say in the Netherlands, thats an expensive joke
    But seriously, Surinamese genealogy is very difficult. Some people I know that are of Surinamese descend don't even come further then 4 generations back in their ancestry. I don't own the needed expertise to really dig deep into it
    Yep... you can only hope that you can push further back, as you see, when you find a connection with the Sefardic community in Amsterdam (or London etc.), there is good chance to get back even further; if I remember well, the JHM (or other archives, both Amsterdam and in The Hague) have large libraries, I know there are books of Jewish families also from the Antilles, so likely there are some about the Jewish communities in Suriname. But, as you indicate, getting a name would be necessary first... I don't have knowledge about Suriname genealogy, it must indeed be difficult; I know from experience from Dutch East Indies that colonial sources are often full of hiatus. GL.
    Ancestry (approx.): ~88.25% West-European; 6.25% Jewish; ~4.50% Indonesian; ~1.00% (South?)-Indian.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Pylsteen For This Useful Post:

     Sergi (09-27-2017)

  14. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    140
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    Yep... you can only hope that you can push further back, as you see, when you find a connection with the Sefardic community in Amsterdam (or London etc.), there is good chance to get back even further; if I remember well, the JHM (or other archives, both Amsterdam and in The Hague) have large libraries, I know there are books of Jewish families also from the Antilles, so likely there are some about the Jewish communities in Suriname. But, as you indicate, getting a name would be necessary first... I don't have knowledge about Suriname genealogy, it must indeed be difficult; I know from experience from Dutch East Indies that colonial sources are often full of hiatus. GL.
    Indeed. The ideal situation would be tracing them back all the way to Morocco! But I assume that won't happen anytime soon. You never know what genealogy and genetic technology will do for us in the near future. I'm hopeful. On the other hand, I can't complain. Before all this, having Jewish ancestry was just a vague oral family story. Besides that there was no knowledge whether the Jewish ancestry was real in the first place and, given it was true, if it was Ashkenazi or Sephardic. Now I actually made these oral stories concrete and actually got two names and indications of what Jewish branch we are. Thats more then I could ever hope for three months ago.
    Last edited by Sergi; 09-27-2017 at 04:56 PM.
    Dutch Northener / Afro-Surinamese / Imazighen Jew

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sergi For This Useful Post:

     Pylsteen (09-27-2017),  Targum (09-28-2017)

  16. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    142
    Sex
    Location
    BR
    Nationality
    Brazilian
    Y-DNA
    R1b-Z49
    mtDNA
    T2b

    Brazil
    Do you know when Laurens Aron de Mesquita was born?
    You can find Surinamese birth records from 1777 to 1828 here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61...237&cat=222899

    Jewish records start at page 238

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. E1a1 among Ashkenazi Jews
    By Power77 in forum E1a-M33
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 12-02-2018, 03:33 PM
  2. The DNA of Ashkenazi & Sephardic Jews
    By Logistics in forum General
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 05-16-2018, 07:18 PM
  3. A new paper on Ashkenazi Jews.
    By Kaldo in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 147
    Last Post: 08-21-2017, 04:04 AM
  4. Sephardic Jews in Eastern Europe
    By Táltos in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-03-2016, 12:55 PM
  5. Ashkenazi Jews - R1a
    By ÁNLEIFR in forum R1a General
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 03-23-2016, 01:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •