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Thread: P312 in the Netherlands

  1. #1
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    P312 in the Netherlands

    While the "Genomes of the Netherlands" project (GoNL) is still processing their data, here is the preliminary P312 breakdown based on summary level data:

    Of the 500 male samples:

    P312 All: 18.6%
    U152: 7.2%
    Z195: 4.4%
    L21: 3.2%
    DF19: 2.0%
    DF99: 0.8%
    L238: 0.0%

    DF27 was not in their test data for whatever reason, so only 88 of the 93 P312+ samples cound be classified, so that still leaves 5 samples unaccounted for. It is either DF27(xZ195) or P312**. Either way, that number is 1% and will not change the frequency much. It will be interesting to see how much of the P312(xU152,L21,xZ195) that Larmuseau (2013) found in Belgium will wind up being upstream DF27, DF19 and DF99.

    For comparison, the GoNL P312-All frequency of 18.6% is in line with the 16.1% found in 87 samples by Myres (2010), albeit with different subclade frequencies:

    P312 All: 16.1%
    P312(xU152,L21): 6.9%
    L21: 5.7%
    U152: 3.4%

    Needless to say, P312 takes a backseat to it brother clade U106 that makes up 33.0% (165 of 500) of the samples.

    http://www.genoomvannederland.nl/?page_id=9
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     ChrisR (07-28-2014),  Mikewww (08-14-2013),  rms2 (08-13-2013)

  3. #2
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    I am more than a little surprised to read that DF99 was found in the study, not because of the number (four out of a sample of 500, which more than doubles the number we knew about yesterday), but because this subclade was only publicly identitifed a couple of days ago. Presumably the people doing this study in the Netherlands have known about it for some time, though they don't seem to be aware of DF27, which I believe was discovered about two years ago.

    Very odd indeed.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    I am more than a little surprised to read that DF99 was found in the study, not because of the number (four out of a sample of 500, which more than doubles the number we knew about yesterday), but because this subclade was only publicly identitifed a couple of days ago. Presumably the people doing this study in the Netherlands have known about it for some time, though they don't seem to be aware of DF27, which I believe was discovered about two years ago.

    Very odd indeed.
    They don't call it DF99, they just posted the data of tens of thousands of derived values. In it, they show that four samples are derived 'A' at position 8829491 which is the same position and derived value for DF99. As for DF27, it could be that it falls outside the filter they used. Too early to tell until they make the full genomes available to the public.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  6. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    they show that four samples are derived 'A' at position 8829491 which is the same position and derived value for DF99.
    This is a cool trick, it's been possible to do it with 23andme results for a long time but the coverage there is pretty light. (It's where my L484 was discovered, though, by Adriano Squecco's data mining operation.) Hans van Vliet has been doing it on request for a few weeks, since he got his full genome via DNA-DTC; and it should be possible with the several Y chromosome full sequences that have recently been ordered. Knowing where to look, and what to look for there, is the hard part -- once you know that, it's so simple a septuagenarian can do it.

  7. #5
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    A remark from The Netherlands.

    The area the website is about, is the northern part of The Netherlands.

    P312 is higher in the South.

    This information is gathered by The Brabant project.

    http://www.brabant-dna.org/

  8. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    A remark from The Netherlands.

    The area the website is about, is the northern part of The Netherlands.

    P312 is higher in the South.

    This information is gathered by The Brabant project.

    http://www.brabant-dna.org/
    Does it say somewhere in the Genomes of the Netherlands Project web site where the samples were collected? I am interested in finding out.

  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Does it say somewhere in the Genomes of the Netherlands Project web site where the samples were collected? I am interested in finding out.
    I don't know, but the cities mentioned are from the north.
    Amsterdam, Leiden, Groningen and Rotterdam.

    During the 80 year war with Spain, (1568-1648) a lot of people from the south went to the north, to evade the Spanish.

    That is the reason why P312 also exists in the North of the Netherlands.

    But most of the YDNA P312 in the south is considered as coming from the origin of the Duchy of Brabant in nowadays Belgium, but also from Northern France.

    It was a surprise to me that I have the same YDNA as 99% of the population of Ireland.

    I was raised by the story that the Dutch were a mixture of 3 tribes, Franks, Saxons, and Frisians (Vikings).
    But in the South, we are Celts.
    So, We are the indigenous people in the Netherlands. at least in the south!!!
    The other 3 tribes came much later..

  10. #8
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    @Ryan

    I was thinking you were SRY2627/M167? Though I may be mistaking you for another person of similar background.
     
    Y-DNA : R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>L176.2>Z262>SRY2627*

    mtDNA : J1c8

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    EEF 49.22068981
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  11. #9
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    Just for the "all things come to him who waits" file: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post598115

    I happened to notice that Larmuseau (of the Belgium study cited by Rocca, six years ago in the original post here) is a co-author of the new Netherlands YDNA paper.

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  13. #10
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    There is more discussion (and Y-SNP breakdowns) in this thread:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....by-full-genome
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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