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Thread: Any progress on R1b-L11* (known at FTDNA as P310+ U106- P312-) ?

  1. #1
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    Any progress on R1b-L11* (known at FTDNA as P310+ U106- P312-) ?

    A new project member, kit 276726, is a fairly close match to kit E4034, who has tested L11+ P310+ U106- P312- . The first guy is wondering whether it would be worth the money to order Geno 2.0. I am hesitant because--if I recall correctly--Geno 2.0 does not detect P312. Thus, he may have to spend $39 in addition to the $220 or so to order Geno 2.0 from overseas.

    Has Geno 2.0 been any help at all for R1b-L11* ?

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to lgmayka For This Useful Post:

     jutland (07-09-2016)

  3. #2
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    You are correct that Geno 2.0 does not test for P312.
    I can't answer the rest of your question.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    A new project member, kit 276726, is a fairly close match to kit E4034, who has tested L11+ P310+ U106- P312- . The first guy is wondering whether it would be worth the money to order Geno 2.0. I am hesitant because--if I recall correctly--Geno 2.0 does not detect P312. Thus, he may have to spend $39 in addition to the $220 or so to order Geno 2.0 from overseas.

    Has Geno 2.0 been any help at all for R1b-L11* ?
    Please ask 276726 to join the R1b project but I need to ask everyone for help.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    Go down to the bottom of the classic results and you'll see this subgrouping I created because I haven't figured out what to do with them.

    Ungrouped temporarily but Geno 2 tested (will be moved to subgrouping)

    227955 Clemens Luscher, b. 1632, d. aft 1680 Switzerland R1b1a2a1a1
    248180 John Carpenter b.1788 d.1865, Lycoming PA England R1b1a2a1a1
    109950 Henrik Räihä Toiwakainen,1723 -1782, Ii, Finland Finland R1b1a2a1a1
    248663 John Crew b.1690, Ayot St Peter,Hertfordshire England R1b1a2a1a1
    N112805 Rinck Netherlands R1b1a2a1a1
    273775 Joseph Mandeville, b 1884, Quebec Canada R1b1a2a1a1
    N113291 William Holme, 1690 United Kingdom R1b1a2a1a1

    Because P312 isn't in Geno 2 I don't know if they are P312+ or P312-. I was hoping we'd see some of the CTS SNPs that might have equivalents that I don't know about (and that FTDNA doesn't seem to comprehend yet either haplogroup-wise.)

    My action item was to load them into both my P312xL21 file and my R1b-Early-Clades file and see if there were matches, but I guess either way I have to ask them to test P312 a la carte. I just haven't gotten around to it, but the big R1b Gateway project is the right place for these guys. I just need to get on the stick or get help.

  5. #4
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    Two members of your project have Geno 2.0 results, are listed as R-P310, and have explicitly tested P312- : kits N24160 and 16296. Morley's predictor claims that both of them are R1b1a2a1a2~2, meaning P312+ (wrong) and CTS4528+ (possibly significant). Other kits that have tested CTS4528+ are 248663, N112805, and N4846. Unfortunately, N4846 has tested P312+ , so perhaps CTS4528 is unstable.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 08-14-2013 at 11:45 PM.

  6. #5
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    These posts needed updating they are misleading to new readers. Currently!!!!

    Geno 2.0 Does no test for P312 - so its absence does not make it a positive - CTS4528 exists as a Terminal Haplogroup
    http://www.semargl.me/de/dna/ydna/item-snp/2243/

    L11*/P312* (P312x U106x) x="negative" should join the correct project - for up to date testing advice.
    http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/r1b1a2a1a

  7. #6
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    Here is my Geno 2.0 analysis for DF21
    image.jpg
    And here is my Geno 2.0 coverage analysis.
    image.jpg

    http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/genographic/
    Gerard Corcoran
    R1b-DF21-S5456-S6166, H1C1

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ballardgen View Post
    These posts needed updating they are misleading to new readers. Currently!!!!

    Geno 2.0 Does no test for P312 - so its absence does not make it a positive - CTS4528 exists as a Terminal Haplogroup
    http://www.semargl.me/de/dna/ydna/item-snp/2243/

    L11*/P312* (P312x U106x) x="negative" should join the correct project - for up to date testing advice.
    http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/r1b1a2a1a
    Hi, descendant of Simone Bellardi from Lucca. I think that we cannot expect to-day to find an R-L11* as we don't find an R-P297* nor an R-L23*, because from when those haplotypes existed every descendant has had many other SNPs (mutations in his Y), about 40 if one is tested by the BigY or more if tested by the Full Y.
    This doesn't falsify your idea that those Bellardis were of Langobard descent nor that the subclades of L11/CTS4528 come from North Europe where German peoples lived.
    Only by collecting and examining all these subclades of L11*, beginning from P312*, we'll be able to understand where L11* lived, as I am trying to understand where L23* lived by examining all the subclades beginning from L51 but also from my Z2110* and before Z2106* etc.
    Last edited by Rathna; 02-02-2014 at 03:50 PM.

  9. #8
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    Hi Rathna,

    Would you not agree that if the samples from this L11/CTS4528 group were dated against each other we would find CTS4528 to be "non recent"


    6.a. P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200> - Geno 2.0 tested 258423 Ballard John Ballard c.1300. Eywas Lacy, Herefordshire, England. England R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 16-16-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 18 15 36-37 12 12
    278944 Bickford William Ballard, b. 1805 - Bristol, England. (Illig son of Miss Bickford) England R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 16-16-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 18 15 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 9 10 12 21-23 14 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 11
    142454 Troost Jacob Jobse 1551/1626 Ouddorp Netherland. Netherlands R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 11-12 12 12 12 12 14 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-17-18 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 16 38-41 12 12
    16296 Foster James Foster b. 1826 Madison Co Ky. England R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 29 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-17-18 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-24 18 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12 36 15 9 15 12 27 26 19 12 12 14 12 11 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 13 10 10 24 15 19 12 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 15 9 12 11
    226232 Carnley Lewis Carnley, 1770-1843. - Baden-Württemberg. Germany R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 12-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 17 15 18 18 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 13 24 21 13 12 11 11 11 11 12 12
    248663 Crew John Crew b.1690, Ayot St Peter,Hertfordshire England R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 17 30 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 17 16 36-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 14 23-23 17 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    N112805 Rinck Netherlands R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 28
    249898 Marker Henry Marker, b. 1848 Honiton, Devon d 1926 NZ. - Ordered The Big Y England R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 19 17 36-37 13 13 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23-25 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

    6.b. P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200> CTS2813 - Geno 2.0 tested
    N115452 Steyn Johannes Jacobus Steyn abt 1855 - STEYN, Douw Gerbrandts (arr c 1669 S/Africa), Netherlands R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-15-16-17 11 10 19-23 16 15 17 18 36-44 12 12

    6.c. P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200> CTS10694> CTS1195> CTS7141> CTS7354 - Geno 2.0 tested
    211617 Walker Thomas Walker (b abt 1781 Lincolnshire, England - Ordered The Big Y England R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-15-17-18 11 10 19-23 16 15 17 17 36-37 12 12
    Last edited by ballardgen; 02-02-2014 at 05:56 PM.

  10. #9
    In fact from these series I think that the most recent common ancestor is many thousands of years ago:

    8 10 10 8 9 10
    8 10 10 8 10 10
    8 11 10 8 10 10

    11 13 11 11 12 11
    11 14 11 11 12 12
    11 11 11 11 12 12


    6.a. P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200> - Geno 2.0 tested 258423 Ballard John Ballard c.1300. Eywas Lacy, Herefordshire, England. England R1b1a2a1a*
    13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 16-16-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 18 15 36-37 12 12
    278944 Bickford William Ballard, b. 1805 - Bristol, England. (Illig son of Miss Bickford) England R1b1a2a1a*
    13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 16-16-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 18 15 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 9 10 12 21-23 14 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 11
    142454 Troost Jacob Jobse 1551/1626 Ouddorp Netherland. Netherlands R1b1a2a1a*
    13 24 14 11 11-12 12 12 12 12 14 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-17-18 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 16 38-41 12 12
    16296 Foster James Foster b. 1826 Madison Co Ky. England R1b1a2a1a*
    13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 29 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-17-18 11 11 19-23 15 15 17
    17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-24 18 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12 36 15 9 15 12 27 26 19 12 12 14 12 11 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 13 10 10 24 15 19 12 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 15 9 12 11
    226232 Carnley Lewis Carnley, 1770-1843. - Baden-Württemberg. Germany R1b1a2a1a*
    13 24 14 11 12-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 17 15 18 18 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 13 24 21 13 12 11 11 11 11 12 12
    248663 Crew John Crew b.1690, Ayot St Peter,Hertfordshire England R1b1a2a1a*
    13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 17 30 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 17 16 36-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 14 23-23 17 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    N112805 Rinck Netherlands R1b1a2a1a*
    13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 28
    249898 Marker Henry Marker, b. 1848 Honiton, Devon d 1926 NZ. - Ordered The Big Y England R1b1a2a1a*
    13 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 19 17 36-37 13 13 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23-25 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

    6.b. P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200> CTS2813 - Geno 2.0 tested
    N115452 Steyn Johannes Jacobus Steyn abt 1855 - STEYN, Douw Gerbrandts (arr c 1669 S/Africa), Netherlands R1b1a2a1a*
    13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-15-16-17 11 10 19-23 16 15 17 18 36-44 12 12

    6.c. P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200> CTS10694> CTS1195> CTS7141> CTS7354 - Geno 2.0 tested
    211617 Walker Thomas Walker (b abt 1781 Lincolnshire, England - Ordered The Big Y England R1b1a2a1a*
    13 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-15-17-18 11 10 19-23 16 15 17 17 36-37 12 12

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    In fact from these series I think that the most recent common ancestor is many thousands of years ago:

    8 10 10 8 9 10
    8 10 10 8 10 10
    8 11 10 8 10 10

    11 13 11 11 12 11
    11 14 11 11 12 12
    11 11 11 11 12 12
    These samples are from the same group - P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200

    So if DF100 - is being defined by - GRCh37 position: 16775613 Ancestral allele: C Derived allele: T
    AND S1200/CTS4528 - is being defined by - GRCh37 position:15697457 Ancestral allele: T Derived allele: C

    and the above statements are correct?? then CTS4528 and DF100 are separate new subclades of P310/11 ??

    and by the above comparisons it would be reasonable to say that CTS4528 could be 4000 to 6000 years old similar to P310/L11 itself?
    Last edited by ballardgen; 02-04-2014 at 01:21 PM.

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