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Thread: L21 hotspots that aren't British Isles or Bretagne

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    L21 hotspots that aren't British Isles or Bretagne

    Richard Rocca pointed out on another thread some of the Southern European hotspots for L21.

    10.3% __ Bologna, Emilia-Romagna, Italy (Boattini 2013)
    19.4% __ Alpes-de-Haute-Provence, France (Ramos-Luis 2009)
    11.1% __ Marseilles, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France (Ramos-Luis 2009)
    08.2% __ Vaucluse, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France (Myres 2010)

    I wouldn't call this a hotspot, but L21 even shows up in the Mediterranean on the Island of Sardinia.

    There are L21 folks mixed in with some of the Pyrenees populations so I'll bet there is a location or two with decent numbers there somewhere. There are a couple of spots on the Scandinavian Peninsula that might qualify too.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 08-15-2013 at 08:58 PM.

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    The Old Norway Project probably has the best survey of regions in Scandinavia. Here were the high spots for L21. I did some "eye" calculations of pie charts to estimate these from the project slide.

    10.0%~ _ Skaraborg, Sweden (Old Norway Project 2011)
    09.0%~ _ inland Norway (Old Norway Project 2011)
    11.0%~ _ unassigned Norway (Old Norway Project 2011)
    05.0%~ _ coastal Norway (Old Norway Project 2011)
    Last edited by TigerMW; 08-15-2013 at 09:15 PM.

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    I think L21 may have first arisen in France or possibly western Germany, and it's hard not to attribute those French and Italian results to Celtic Gauls, who also would have had strong U152 and DF27 components.

    But Scandinavia is problematic. There were Beaker settlements in SW Norway, but every time the subject of L21 in Scandinavia comes up, the age-old "British thrall" argument rears its ugly head. Even Maciamo Hay of Eupedia endorses it, at least in part. Honestly, I have mixed feelings on the issue myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo Hay
    The stronger presence of L21 in Norway and Iceland can be attributed to the Norwegian Vikings, who had colonised parts of Scotland and Ireland and taken slaves among the native Celtic populations, whom they brought to their new colony of Iceland and back to Norway.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...-DNA.shtml#L21

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    My mom's direct paternal lineage is back to 1700 western Finland with likely eastern Finland border roots. He has another L21+ match at 65/67 and we can't find the common ancestor yet, but both have the same two locations with the eastern location as only a clue at the moment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    ... There were Beaker settlements in SW Norway, but every time the subject of L21 in Scandinavia comes up, the age-old "British thrall" ... Even Maciamo Hay of Eupedia endorses it...
    Maciamo Hay wrote,
    "attributed to the Norwegian Vikings, who had colonised parts of Scotland and Ireland and taken slaves among the native Celtic populations, whom they brought to their new colony of Iceland and back to Norway."

    There probably was some redistribution of people from the Isles as result of the Viking trade, but these L21 percentages are quite high for low class males, not culturally and climatically adapted to a Scandinavia environment.

    The available genetic evidence shows the ratio of L21xM222 to M222 is several times higher in Scandinavia than in the northern parts of Ireland and Scotland so you have to rule those areas out and say the Vikings did all there damage in the southern parts of Ireland or Wales.

    If P312* brothers to L21 could have made it to Scandinavia in the Chalcocolithic or Bronze Ages, it's hard to understand why L21 guys would not have. Bell Beakers folks certainly did. If L21 did reach Scandinavia then, they would have had a big head start (i.e. 1000-2000 years) to go with a more elite status.

    Besides, my understanding was women were more often involved in this trade and the bulk of the trade was with buyers who had something of value to exchange. In other words, the continent was a more likely target area than Scandinavia.

    There were also other historic period migrations besides thralls. There were craftsmen and merchants. The Scottish Barony web site says,
    "During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries there was significant emigration from Scotland to Norway, Sweden and Denmark. Some of this was by economic migrants, mainly by merchants and craftsmen, in search of career opportunities, however the majority of Scots arrived in Scandinavia as soldiers of fortune seeking employment in the armies of Sweden and Denmark-Norway under leaders especially Gustavus Adolphus. The majority of migrants originated along the east coast of Scotland and the Northern Isles."
    http://baronytitles.com/index.php?ma...t01returnid=19

    It would be interesting to see a granular breakdown of Y DNA in Iceland. Has anyone seen such a thing?
    Last edited by TigerMW; 08-16-2013 at 01:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ilmari View Post
    My mom's direct paternal lineage is back to 1700 western Finland with likely eastern Finland border roots. He has another L21+ match at 65/67 and we can't find the common ancestor yet, but both have the same two locations with the eastern location as only a clue at the moment.
    What's his kit #? I've found a guy in Finland who looks like a match for my cluster - 128145 Holmberg(Tammisaari)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Richard Rocca pointed out on another thread some of the Southern European hotspots for L21.

    10.3% __ Bologna, Emilia-Romagna, Italy (Boattini 2013)
    19.4% __ Alpes-de-Haute-Provence, France (Ramos-Luis 2009)
    11.1% __ Marseilles, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France (Ramos-Luis 2009)
    08.2% __ Vaucluse, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France (Myres 2010)

    I wouldn't call this a hotspot, but L21 even shows up in the Mediterranean on the Island of Sardinia.

    There are L21 folks mixed in with some of the Pyrenees populations so I'll bet there is a location or two with decent numbers there somewhere. There are a couple of spots on the Scandinavian Peninsula that might qualify too.
    Likely more so than anywhere else outside of the Isles or Bretagne...

    Ramos-Luis (2012):
    27.3% __ Baztan France
    22.8% __ Gipuzkoa-SW, Spain
    21.6% __ Araba, Spain
    20.8% __ Roncal, Spain
    19.1% __ Gipuzkoa, Spain
    15.0% __ Nafarroa-CW, Spain
    14.3% __ Bearn, France
    13.6% __ Nafarroa, France
    12.3% __ Bizkaia, Spain
    11.1% __ La Rioja, Spain
    10.5% __ Bizkaia-W, Spain
    10.3% __ Chalosse, France
    09.8% __ Nafarroa-NW, Spain
    06.8% __ Bigorre, France
    05.7% __ Zuberoa, France
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Maciamo seems to have modified his views, at least to a certain extent. Within the past few days he wrote the following on the Eupedia forum:

    "P312 and its subclades make up 55% of all Scandinavian R1b, enough to break the stereotype that U106 is the only Germanic branch of R1b. Naturally a lot of L21 can be attributed to Irish and Scottish slaves brought by the Vikings, but that cannot explain all subclades."

    I'm glad he is finally coming to terms with the idea that P312 is not exclusively Celtic, though the evidence has been there for years for anyone with an open mind. I used to get a chuckle out of his Eupedia R1b chart which listed L238 as the Celtic-Nordic branch of R1b. I don't know if he's changed it.

    The idea that the substantial amount of L21 in Scandinavia must have been brought in as Viking slaves shows little understanding of how the Vikings utilized slaves, and is based on the completely different model of African slaves in America. In my opinion this belief has been largely endorsed by Celtic purists who refuse to acknowedge a Germanic elelment among L21, and U106 purists who refuse to acknowledge any type of R1b-P312 as Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    What's his kit #? I've found a guy in Finland who looks like a match for my cluster - 128145 Holmberg(Tammisaari)
    They are WAMH.

    My mother's paternal kit number is 130937 and 65/67 match is 153101.

    I find it odd why they are in different segments of the R-L21+ project, so could anyone please explain what is needed from one of the kits or the other?

    My family kit is under: A. L21+ (If you can, test for DF13 status)

    The other kit is under: C. DF13+ (L21>DF13; check for the DF13+ SNPs below)

    So, can I assume that I should do the DF13 test for 130937? Is it called that in the advanced SNPs? Sorry for being ignorant.

    Any others I should order at the same time? I think I recall asking something like this and then life got crazy on me.
    Last edited by ilmari; 08-16-2013 at 02:11 AM.
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    Not a hotspot either, and not meaning to distract, but one of the more baffling pockets of L21 is the "Baltic Jewish L21" group:

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    (On Ysearch, users T8A6N, D6T5T, 534VG, B2BNR, BV6P8, 9HPG7, 9NR3T).

    This is of some interest to me both because some of these men claim Ashkenazi Levite ancestry, and also because I am related to at least one of these men autosomally. I imagine this group most likely arose in Germany, Italy, France or Spain but since none of these lines can be reliably traced before 1800, who knows?
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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