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Thread: Is Y-haplogroup R non-Caucasoid and Beringian/Siberian in origin?

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    Is Y-haplogroup R non-Caucasoid and Beringian/Siberian in origin?

    Sorry if this has been discussed before in another thread or is obvious knowledge. I'm relatively new here, and using Gedrosia Eurasia K9 ASI averages to theorise.

    The Ma'lta boy was basal haplogroup R and is autosomally 75% EHG with no WHG.

    According to wiki: MA-1 belonged to a population related to the genetic ancestors of Siberians, American Indians, and Bronze Age Yamnaya people of the Eurasian steppe.[1][2] In particular MA-1 was found to be genetically close to modern-day Native Americans, Kets, Mansi, Nganasans and Yukaghirs.[3]. While the skeletal remains of MA-1 have been described as phenotypially East Asian ("Mongolid"), subsequent research has questioned this description. Alexeev (1998, p. 323) in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this area was "inhabited by a population of Mongolid appearance". [6] Genomic study Raghavan et al. (2014) and Fu et al. (2016) found Mal'ta Buret had brown eyes, dark hair and dark skin.[1][7]. According to a 2016 study, it was found that the global maximum of ANE ancestry occurs in modern-day Kets, Mansi, Native Americans, Nganasans and Yukaghirs.[3] Additionally it has been reported in ancient Bronze-age-steppe Yamnaya and Afanasevo cultures.[2] Between 14 and 38 percent of Native American ancestry may originate from gene flow from the Mal'ta Buret people, while the other geneflow in Native Americans appears to have an Eastern Eurasian origin. [1] Sequencing of another south-central Siberian (Afontova Gora-2) dating to approximately 17,000 years ago, revealed similar autosomal genetic signatures as Mal'ta boy-1, suggesting that the region was continuously occupied by humans throughout the Last Glacial Maximum. [1]

    Genomic studies also indicates that ANE was introduced to Europe by way of the Yamna culture.[2][3] "Ancient North Eurasian" genetic component is visible in tests of the Yamnaya people, which makes up 50% of their ancestry.[2][3] It is also reported in modern-day Europeans (5%-18% ANE admixture), but not of Europeans predating the Bronze Age.[2][3]

    European R1b is defined by much higher WHG autosomal ancestry than EHG (3.25x for the English), and the WHG ancestral component peaks in Uralic peoples (originally not Haplogroup R) around the Baltic coast.

    Indian R1a peoples have higher EHG than WHG (2x on average).

    This leads me to believe that when R1a/R1b people split, R1b collected a lot more conventionally European Uralic genes moving westward, whereas Indian R1a peoples are missing this huge component (usually 5% max WHG possibly due to R1a/R1b mingling in the steppe) but has comparable levels of EHG (10% in Punjabis vs 14% in English).

    This then implies that the common ancestral component in Haplogroup R is EHG ancestry, which according to the Ma'lta boy, is Siberian/Beringian phenotypically. This also links R with Siberian Q, the sister haplogroup common among Indigenous Americans

    Thoughts?

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    Ma'lta is ANE, not EHG.

    EHG is 75% ANE and rest something similar to WHG.

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    Yep you're right, so basal R is ANE

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Sorry if this has been discussed before in another thread or is obvious knowledge. I'm relatively new here, and using Gedrosia Eurasia K9 ASI averages to theorise.

    The Ma'lta boy was basal haplogroup R and is autosomally 75% EHG with no WHG.

    According to wiki: MA-1 belonged to a population related to the genetic ancestors of Siberians, American Indians, and Bronze Age Yamnaya people of the Eurasian steppe.[1][2] In particular MA-1 was found to be genetically close to modern-day Native Americans, Kets, Mansi, Nganasans and Yukaghirs.[3]. While the skeletal remains of MA-1 have been described as phenotypially East Asian ("Mongolid"), subsequent research has questioned this description. Alexeev (1998, p. 323) in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this area was "inhabited by a population of Mongolid appearance". [6] Genomic study Raghavan et al. (2014) and Fu et al. (2016) found Mal'ta Buret had brown eyes, dark hair and dark skin.[1][7]. According to a 2016 study, it was found that the global maximum of ANE ancestry occurs in modern-day Kets, Mansi, Native Americans, Nganasans and Yukaghirs.[3] Additionally it has been reported in ancient Bronze-age-steppe Yamnaya and Afanasevo cultures.[2] Between 14 and 38 percent of Native American ancestry may originate from gene flow from the Mal'ta Buret people, while the other geneflow in Native Americans appears to have an Eastern Eurasian origin. [1] Sequencing of another south-central Siberian (Afontova Gora-2) dating to approximately 17,000 years ago, revealed similar autosomal genetic signatures as Mal'ta boy-1, suggesting that the region was continuously occupied by humans throughout the Last Glacial Maximum. [1]

    Genomic studies also indicates that ANE was introduced to Europe by way of the Yamna culture.[2][3] "Ancient North Eurasian" genetic component is visible in tests of the Yamnaya people, which makes up 50% of their ancestry.[2][3] It is also reported in modern-day Europeans (5%-18% ANE admixture), but not of Europeans predating the Bronze Age.[2][3]

    European R1b is defined by much higher WHG autosomal ancestry than EHG (3.25x for the English), and the WHG ancestral component peaks in Uralic peoples (originally not Haplogroup R) around the Baltic coast.

    Indian R1a peoples have higher EHG than WHG (2x on average).

    This leads me to believe that when R1a/R1b people split, R1b collected a lot more conventionally European Uralic genes moving westward, whereas Indian R1a peoples are missing this huge component (usually 5% max WHG possibly due to R1a/R1b mingling in the steppe) but has comparable levels of EHG (10% in Punjabis vs 14% in English).

    This then implies that the common ancestral component in Haplogroup R is EHG ancestry, which according to the Ma'lta boy, is Siberian/Beringian phenotypically. This also links R with Siberian Q, the sister haplogroup common among Indigenous Americans

    Thoughts?
    This is a bit outdated. EHG has turned up in Ukranian Mesolithic, so it looks like WHG and ANE met in the northern Balkans or Ukraine and merged near the end of the upper Paleolithic.

    WHG is an early wave of Middle Easterners between 20-30 ybp. EHG is derived 75% from ANE (yDNA R) which is a descendant of the presumably SE Asian MP, and is shifted towards Han and Native American populations, the rest from WHG. So while Kostenki/Vestonice/Sunghir met those early Middle Easterners venturing into Europe 25,000 years ago, all of the R ancestors were still far to the east.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 10-09-2017 at 02:53 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    ANE (yDNA R) which is shifted towards Han and Native American populations...
    Really? Nobody told me. ANE is essentially Mal'ta Boy. The Raghavan 2013 paper on him said that he was unrelated to East Asians, whereas Native Americans are related to East Asians, as well as carrying ANE. Thus it appears that the group which populated the Americas was composed of a mixture of ANE and an East Asian population.

    Similarly, we find autosomal evidence that MA-1 is basal to modern-day western Eurasians and genetically closely related to modern-day Native Americans, with no close affinity to east Asians.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-09-2017 at 04:44 PM.

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    Since R ydna is SE Asian does that make "his Father" P as well?

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2014106a.html


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Really? Nobody told me. ANE is essentially Mal'ta Boy. The Raghavan 2013 paper on him said that he was unrelated to East Asians, whereas Native Americans are related to East Asians, as well as carrying ANE. Thus it appears that the group which populated the Americas was composed of a mixture of ANE and an East Asian population.
    Recent studies differ from that model since Reich et al 2017 models ANE as mix of ENA and UP. There is also some on-going discussion about ANE in this thread for example.
    Last edited by Observer; 10-09-2017 at 05:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    Recent studies differ from that model since Reich et al 2017 models ANE as mix of ENA and UP.
    Reich et al 2017?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Reich et al 2017?
    Lipson and Reich 2017, A Working Model of the Deep Relationships of Diverse Modern Human Genetic Lineages Outside of Africa.

    and on as well http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/0...-eurasian.html
    Last edited by Observer; 10-09-2017 at 06:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    Recent studies differ from that model since Reich et al 2017 models ANE as mix of ENA and UP. There is also some on-going discussion about ANE in this thread for example.
    I think Reich removed Basal which would put Ust on the West Eurasian side.



    Even then this not consistent with the language in the text.
    "present-day European and East Asian populations to infer dates of initial separation of 40–45 kya (adjusted for a mutation rate of 0.5 × 10−9 per year; Scally 2016). Interestingly, two early modern Eurasians (Ust’-Ishim (Fu et al. 2014), from ∼45 kya in western Siberia, and Oase 1 (Fu et al. 2015), from ∼40 kya in Romania) have been found that share little or no ancestry with either clade"
    Also I see 3 Neanderthal inputs.

    "our most powerful temporal constraint comes from Ust’-Ishim, whose date of ∼45 kya places the eastern/western Eurasian split no later than this time"

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