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Thread: Frequency of Y-DNA R2 in Sasun

  1. #1
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    Frequency of Y-DNA R2 in Sasun

    Any ideas on its origin(s)? Too bad they (Herrera et al.) did not calculate haplotype diversity, variance, etc. for the R2 men.

    From Herrera et al. (SAS = Sasun)

    Code:
    ARV	GRD	Van	SAS	HG
    5.5%	4.2%	7.8%	2.9%	E1b1
    0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	F
    10.9%	6.3%	7.8%	12.5%	G
    2.7%	8.3%	1.9%	0.0%	I
    14.5%	4.2%	13.6%	9.6%	J1
    23.6%	32.3%	29.1%	17.3%	J2
    0.9%	1.0%	1.9%	3.8%	L
    0.0%	1.0%	0.0%	0.0%	N
    0.0%	0.0%	1.0%	0.0%	Q1b
    0.9%	5.2%	0.0%	1.0%	R1a
    37.3%	31.3%	32.0%	15.4%	R1b
    0.0%	0.0%	1.0%	17.3%	R2
    3.6%	6.3%	3.9%	20.2%	T

    I know that a good many folks assume that if there was a single "Mitanni Y-DNA haplogroup" it would be a variety of R1a, but how about the possibility of R2? How about both R1a and R2?
    Last edited by Humanist; 08-18-2013 at 06:24 PM.

  2. #2
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    I analysed the Armenian R2a's privately when the data first came out. I inferred three main groups, with the middle constituting at two sub-groups;

    Cluster A: DYS389I=13, DYS456=15, DYS385a=12. DYS385b=19, DYS458=20
    Code:
    	DYS389I	DYS389II	DYS390	DYS456	DYS19	DYS385a	DYS385b	DYS458	DYS437	DYS438	DYS448	GATA_H4	DYS391	DYS392	DYS393	DYS439	DYS635
    Sasun_014	13	29	23	15	14	12	19	20	15	11	20	11	10	10	14	11	25
    Sasun_016	13	29	23	15	14	12	19	20	15	11	20	11	10	10	14	11	25
    Sasun_025	13	29	23	15	14	12	19	20	15	11	20	11	10	10	14	11	25
    Sasun_029	13	29	23	15	14	12	19	20	15	11	20	11	10	10	14	11	25
    Sasun_032	13	29	23	15	14	12	19	20	15	11	20	11	10	10	14	11	25
    Sasun_035	13	29	23	15	14	12	18	18	15	11	20	10	10	10	14	13	25
    Sasun_044	13	29	23	15	14	12	19	20	15	11	20	11	10	10	14	11	25
    Cluster B1: DYS389I=13, DYS456=16, DYS385a=18, DYS385b=18, DYS458=18
    Code:
    	DYS389I	DYS389II	DYS390	DYS456	DYS19	DYS385a	DYS385b	DYS458	DYS437	DYS438	DYS448	GATA_H4	DYS391	DYS392	DYS393	DYS439	DYS635
    Sasun_005	13	29	23	16	14	18	18	18	15	11	20	11	10	10	14	12	25
    Sasun_009	13	29	23	16	14	18	18	18	15	11	20	11	10	10	14	12	25
    Cluster B2: DYS389I=13, DYS456=16, DYS385a=12, DYS385b=18, DYS458=18
    Code:
    	DYS389I	DYS389II	DYS390	DYS456	DYS19	DYS385a	DYS385b	DYS458	DYS437	DYS438	DYS448	GATA_H4	DYS391	DYS392	DYS393	DYS439	DYS635
    Sasun_003	13	29	23	16	14	12	18	18	15	11	20	10	10	10	14	12	25
    Sasun_010	13	29	23	16	14	12	18	18	15	11	20	10	10	10	14	12	25
    Sasun_024	13	29	23	16	14	12	18	18	15	11	20	11	10	10	14	12	25
    Sasun_028	13	29	23	16	14	12	18	18	15	11	20	10	10	10	14	12	25
    Sasun_042	13	29	23	16	14	12	18	18	15	11	20	10	10	10	14	12	25
    Sasun_047	13	29	23	16	14	12	18	18	15	11	20	11	10	10	14	12	25
    Cluster C: DYS389I=12, DYS456=15, DYS385a=11, DYS385b=21, DYS458=17, DYS437=16, DYS448=19, GATAT-H4=12, DYS391=9, DYS393=13, DYS635=28
    Code:
    	DYS389I	DYS389II	DYS390	DYS456	DYS19	DYS385a	DYS385b	DYS458	DYS437	DYS438	DYS448	GATA_H4	DYS391	DYS392	DYS393	DYS439	DYS635
    Sasun_055	12	29	23	15	14	11	21	17	16	11	19	12	9	10	13	10	28
    Sasun_061	12	29	23	15	14	11	21	17	16	11	19	12	9	10	13	10	28
    Sasun_066	12	29	23	15	14	11	21	17	16	11	19	12	9	10	13	10	28
    Cluster C is clearly the most divergent from the others. It has some very peculiar values, such as DYS635=28. It's also worth noting Y-Predictor confirmed all of these are R2a1 (L295+) with a probability of at least 70% (Cluster C is 100%).

    Based on this, Cluster C's unusual values relative to the others lead me to believe it's probably less indigenous to the Sasun area than the others. Perhaps it was brought westwards by the Mitanni or some other Indo-Iranian movement that might have picked up R2a along the way.

    I don't think that proposition can extend to Clusters A-B2, as we see x-step mutations only only 4/17 STR's and GATA-H4 is either 10 or 11 across all, indicating their relationship's much closer. This also supports in-situ diversification in the Armenian highlands.

    Having said all this, it's quite possible that Clusters A-B2 actually took the place of C here and could be the "foreign" group. It's near-impossible to assert either without more STR's and comparing with other populations.

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    "Expansion times for haplogroups R1b, J2 and T were estimated from the eight STR loci dataset using the method described in Zhivotovsky et al32 and modified by Sengupta and collaborators."

    Surprisingly low expansion times.
    J2 Maximum Palestine 19.3 29/40 0.98080.0101 0.6740 7.81.5 9.93.2
    R1b Maximum Jordan 9.2 16/20 0.97370.0250 0.4138 6.62.0 8.13.5


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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    ..
    I do not understand the relevance of Y-DNA J2 and R1b data to this thread, unless you're suggesting R1b and/or J2 have some sort of indication of R2a's prominence in Sasun?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    I do not understand the relevance of Y-DNA J2 and R1b data to this thread, unless you're suggesting R1b and/or J2 have some sort of indication of R2a's prominence in Sasun?
    No particular relevance as far as R1b is concerned, but when Humanist noted that they "did not calculate haplotype diversity, variance, etc. for the R2 men" I was trying to see if there were any clues from Sasun R1a and J2. R1a is almost missing in the Sasun, and their J2 is just ~2.2k old. But then I noticed that all calculated ages were surprisingly low in light of their using Sengupta modified Zhiv.

  7. #6
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    An interesting development has happened lately which may be related to this topic. Under the Armenian project a new R2a sample showed up:

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    Kit 311331 is my closest match so far (15/67), after investigating further the sample turned out to be one of the last Armenian remnants from Sasun. In other words there's definitely some diversity in the R2a that exists in Sasun despite the smaller population number.

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  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    Any ideas on its origin(s)? Too bad they (Herrera et al.) did not calculate haplotype diversity, variance, etc. for the R2 men.

    From Herrera et al. (SAS = Sasun)

    Code:
    ARV	GRD	Van	SAS	HG
    5.5%	4.2%	7.8%	2.9%	E1b1
    0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	0.0%	F
    10.9%	6.3%	7.8%	12.5%	G
    2.7%	8.3%	1.9%	0.0%	I
    14.5%	4.2%	13.6%	9.6%	J1
    23.6%	32.3%	29.1%	17.3%	J2
    0.9%	1.0%	1.9%	3.8%	L
    0.0%	1.0%	0.0%	0.0%	N
    0.0%	0.0%	1.0%	0.0%	Q1b
    0.9%	5.2%	0.0%	1.0%	R1a
    37.3%	31.3%	32.0%	15.4%	R1b
    0.0%	0.0%	1.0%	17.3%	R2
    3.6%	6.3%	3.9%	20.2%	T

    I know that a good many folks assume that if there was a single "Mitanni Y-DNA haplogroup" it would be a variety of R1a, but how about the possibility of R2? How about both R1a and R2?
    It is probably worth resurrecting this thread for a renewed discussion of the possible significance of the abundance of R2 observed among the Armenians of Sasun, in light of Lazaridis et al.

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