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Thread: Is there pure P312=Celtic U106=Germanic before Vikings? how does L21 fit?

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    Is there pure P312=Celtic U106=Germanic before Vikings? how does L21 fit?

    This is usually a passionate discussion. I'm not sure I totally understand all of the passion, but I think it is somewhat akin to the whole IE glory thing but distributed down to Celts, Vikings, Anglo-Saxons...

    There is no doubt in the modern distribution of the R1b haplogroups that P312 is heavily oriented to ancient Celtic territories and U106 is heavily oriented towards Germanic territories although Germanic territories generally have a more balanced mix including I1, R1a and P312.

    My primary suggestion is that P312 is so dominant in ancient Celtic lands, that people often overlook that it is a significant player in ancient Germanic lands too.

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    My first thought was to say 'I agree' since this was formulated more as a statement than a question.

    Something I was thinking about just the other day is the relatively limited distribution of U106 in comparison to P312 is another piece of evidence for U106 being somewhat younger than P312

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    My first thought was to say 'I agree' since this was formulated more as a statement than a question.

    Something I was thinking about just the other day is the relatively limited distribution of U106 in comparison to P312 is another piece of evidence for U106 being somewhat younger than P312
    And/or being somewhat bottled up east or southeast of where it expanded to.

    Some might say it was bottled up north/northeast (Fenno-Scandinavia) but I'm not one of those.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    And/or being somewhat bottled up east or southeast of where it expanded to.

    Some might say it was bottled up north/northeast (Fenno-Scandinavia) but I'm not one of those.
    Definitely a possibility but then we've got to come up with a plausible explanation for this bottling effect, U106 is pretty scarce in continental Romantic Language countries

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    My first thought about U106 is this: Germanic exists all over scandanavia down into Germany and the culture and language encompasses P312, U106, I, and R1a. Is it possible that U106 wasn't originally Germanic, but became so due to contact with one of the other groups? Or is it the opposite?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    My first thought about U106 is this: Germanic exists all over scandanavia down into Germany and the culture and language encompasses P312, U106, I, and R1a. Is it possible that U106 wasn't originally Germanic, but became so due to contact with one of the other groups? Or is it the opposite?
    I also wonder about this. Does anyone have U106 distribution data which divides up Germany, Scandinavia, Austria etc?

    For example I recall U106 is particularly common in areas near the Rhine, but indeed this is an area where Germanic languages may have been intrusive. (There is no concensus about what language was being spoken there when the Romans arrived.)

    Andrew

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    There are two good P312 and U106 SNP maps at Semargl. The charts under the maps show the percentages of both in western Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    My first thought about U106 is this: Germanic exists all over scandanavia down into Germany and the culture and language encompasses P312, U106, I, and R1a. Is it possible that U106 wasn't originally Germanic, but became so due to contact with one of the other groups? Or is it the opposite?
    I would expect there would be some exchanges of people between neighboring groups since the formation of Proto-Germanic culture. Quantifying how much seems to be the difficult matter, but you bring out another point - the whole time scale.

    U106 and P312 both appear to be quite a bit older than the development of a Proto-Germanic language. Wikipedia says,
    "Although Proto-Germanic was reconstructed as a node in the tree model of language development, its main innovations must have followed a logical and therefore a chronological sequence, leading to the hypothesis that, over its estimated life of nearly one thousand years, roughly 500 BC to 500 AD"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language
    Since P312 is probably at least 4000 years old there is at least 1500 years of time span that P312 in Europe could have wondered into what would become Germanic lands. The opportunity was there, anyway. To me it would be surprising if P312 was involved in these territories, assuming P312 was all over other parts of Western and Central Europe and was apparently a good seafarer.

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    I think whenever one speaks of historical ethnic and tribal affiliations and y haplogroups, he must remember that it is only possible to generalize, that is, to look at the big, overall picture. So, in my opinion, the word "pure" is out of the question. I would never go so far as to say that every individual P312+ man is a Celt, for example, but I do think it is possible to say that P312 is a reasonably good fit for what we know of the ancient Celts and that U106 is a reasonably good fit for what we know of the ancient Germans.

    The problem with terms like "Celt" and "German" is that they are primarily linguistic and cultural, and thus very fluid, and not, strictly speaking, racial or genetic categories. They also represent classifications that are far younger than the y haplogroups being discussed.

    It is also important to recall that most of what we now call Germany only slowly became "German". Before that process began, most of it was home to various Celtic tribes, particularly in southern and western Germany. So, not all German y-dna is of Germanic origin. Much of it is Celtic, some of it is Slavic, and some of it has its origin in other groups that have gone into the German stew.

    What I see in the distribution of P312 as a whole is high frequency in the old Celtic homelands and a progressive thinning out beyond that. P312 is far far less significant in the old Germanic homelands, i.e., North Germany and Scandinavia, than it is in southern and western Germany, France, Iberia, Italy, and the British Isles. The reverse is true for U106. In the Isles, U106 reaches its highest frequencies in the places settled most thickly by Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, and, later, their English descendants.

    In Scandinavia, while there is some P312, it is far less frequent than elsewhere farther south and west, and much of it probably does not predate the Middle Ages there. There is excellent reason to doubt, for example, whether most of the L21 in Scandinavia predates the Viking Period (as discussed on another recent thread: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...es-or-Bretagne).

    As I said, the reverse is true for U106. It is most frequent in the old Germanic homelands and thins out as one moves south and west away from them. As Dienekes aptly remarked:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes

    The existence of R-U106 as a major lineage within the Germanic group is self-evident, as Germanic populations have a higher frequency against all their neighbors (Romance, Irish, Slavs, Finns). Indeed, highest frequencies are attained in the Germanic countries, followed by countries where Germanic speakers are known to have settled in large numbers but to have ultimately been absorbed or fled (such as Ireland, north Italy, and the lands of the Austro-Hungarian empire). South Italy, the Balkans, and West Asia are areas of the world where no Germanic settlement of any importance is attested, and correspondingly R-U106 shrinks to near-zero.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08...ntral-and.html
    The distribution of L21 is such a close fit to that of the insular and other northwestern Celts that one would be hard pressed to argue that it represents anything else.

    Haplogroup-R1b-L21 update 16 June 2013.gif
    Last edited by rms2; 08-19-2013 at 02:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I think whenever one speaks of historical ethnic and tribal affiliations and y haplogroups, he must remember that it is only possible to generalize, that is, to look at the big, overall picture. So, in my opinion, the word "pure" is out of the question.
    Agreed, the next question is how much is significant or not in terms of mixture.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I would never go so far as to say that every individual P312+ man is a Celt, for example, but I do think it is possible to say that P312 is a reasonably good fit for what we know of the ancient Celts and that U106 is a reasonably good fit for what we know of the ancient Germans.
    I agree there are clear correlations but I think P312's scope is a bit more expansive than U106 when you compare the two head to head.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    What I see in the distribution of P312 as a whole is high frequency in the old Celtic homelands and a progressive thinning out beyond that. P312 is far far less significant in the old Germanic homelands, i.e., North Germany and Scandinavia, than it is in southern and western Germany, France, Iberia, Italy, and the British Isles. The reverse is true for U106. In the Isles, U106 reaches its highest frequencies in the places settled most thickly by Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, and, later, their English descendants.
    This is what I mean by a half full versus half empty perspective. If you compare P312 on the Atlantic adjoining areas it is of such high frequency that it visually diminishes its own presence elsewhere. However, if you compare P312 with other clades, like U106, it is notable that P312 is a significant player outside of the Atlantic areas too.

    From what I can see, the best study we have of Y DNA is the Old Norway Project graphic included below. Please check out the small pie (R1b only) breakouts. Pretty much, the U106 is is in bright green and the rest are elements of P312 with the exception of Ostergotland.

    U106 is well over 50% and more of the R1b in Denmark and Bleking/Kristianstad, Sweden, but....
    P312 is well over 50% in Norway Coastal but also has an majority at Skaraborg, Sweden.
    P312 is approximately even in Norway unassigned.
    Ostergotland-Jonkopig, Sweden is a bit odd with more "M269" than you'd expect.

    P312 is a signficant player in Scandinavia, commensurate with U106, no ifs, ands, ors or buts.

    Last edited by Mikewww; 08-19-2013 at 03:29 PM.

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