Page 1 of 45 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 441

Thread: J2b2 (J-M241)

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    352
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Turkish
    Nationality
    German
    mtDNA (M)
    HV4
    Y-DNA (P)
    J2b2a1-L283>Z1297

    J2b2 (J-M241)

    I thought as a fellow J2b2* carrier I should open a thread about this neglected haplogroup.

    I found this heatmap of global J2b2 distribution from NatGeo's Genographic project, merged with a map of Anatolia.

    The distribution in Anatolia is linked to Phrygian Settlements. My paternal line is from Sangarius, modern-day Sakarya, it's where the home of the Phrygians was located.

    Globally the peak of the distribution is located in the Balkans where it is thought to have originated. This site claims it's concentrated highest in Kosovar Albanians with around 17%.

    There are theories that claim the haplogroup was spread from the Balkans through Alexander's troups which he recruited in Macedonia. This seems plausible for the spread in Europe, but the presence of J2b2 in India seems to predate this events.





    So any other J2b2 carriers here? Has anybody more information?

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Sangarius For This Useful Post:

     Cinnamon orange (06-01-2015),  DMXX (12-10-2015),  NK19191 (02-10-2014),  rms2 (08-21-2013)

  3. #2
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,648
    Sex

    Are you familiar with all of the subclades below (more specific than) M241 ? (See the J-M102 Project.) They may eventually tell us a lot about how J-M241 spread.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lgmayka For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (12-10-2015),  Sangarius (08-21-2013)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    352
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Turkish
    Nationality
    German
    mtDNA (M)
    HV4
    Y-DNA (P)
    J2b2a1-L283>Z1297

    No, I've only tested with 23andme, so I don't know to which specific subclade I belong. I guess I would at least have to take a 37 marker test at FtDNA to find out more.
    Are you J2b2?

  6. #4
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    11,641
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF83
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-FGC36981

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    If you can afford it, go with 111 markers. You'll want to do it eventually anyway, and you'll get better resolution. 37 markers are just nowhere near enough.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (12-10-2015),  Sangarius (08-21-2013)

  8. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    352
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Turkish
    Nationality
    German
    mtDNA (M)
    HV4
    Y-DNA (P)
    J2b2a1-L283>Z1297

    I see, so I better do it right the first time and take the 111 marker test. But at the current price this will have to wait. :-P

    I just looked again at the 23andme haplogroup tree mutation mapper. They do actually test for the SNPs associated with the subclades J2b2a (M99), J2b2b (M280) and J2b2c (M321). But I don't have any of the mutations. Is it still possible to fall into one of the subclades when testing STRs?

  9. #6
    Senior Member
    Posts
    410
    Sex
    Location
    Edmonton, AB
    Ethnicity
    European
    Nationality
    Canadian
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a1a1h
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-FGC396>L199.1

    Canada Netherlands Poland Austrian Empire Russia Imperial
    DYS617=12 (rather than >= 13) appears to be a good predictor for belonging to J-Z1296 or below.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...6bUc2VUE#gid=0
    http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpJ.html


    1000 Genomes Project data has revealed significant more information than FTDNA or Geno 2.0 can currently test for:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...eR_2a9J6g/edit

    (Google docs created by the J2b-M102 Project administrator)

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to VinceT For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (12-10-2015),  Sangarius (08-23-2013)

  11. #7
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,648
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Sangarius View Post
    I see, so I better do it right the first time and take the 111 marker test. But at the current price this will have to wait. :-P
    You need not wait. You can order as little as 12 markers (Y-DNA12) now, then upgrade to 37, 67, or even 111 during the usual Christmas discount sale.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sangarius View Post
    I just looked again at the 23andme haplogroup tree mutation mapper. They do actually test for the SNPs associated with the subclades J2b2a (M99), J2b2b (M280) and J2b2c (M321). But I don't have any of the mutations. Is it still possible to fall into one of the subclades when testing STRs?
    Many, many new subclades have been discovered since the 23andMe test was designed.

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to lgmayka For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (12-10-2015),  mel (12-26-2015),  Sangarius (08-23-2013)

  13. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,375
    Sex
    Location
    New York
    Ethnicity
    South Asian
    Nationality
    American
    mtDNA (M)
    M30b2a
    Y-DNA (P)
    J2b2-M241 (J-Y978*)

    United States of America Canada
    I just got a test done at 23andme.com and it says my paternal lineage is J2b2* (M241).

    A bit about my paternal background: Pakistan, Punjab, ethnicity: Jatt, tribe/clan/surname: Gill

    You can read on Jatt at Wikipedia. Most of the results I've seen from them go back to Central Asian lineages, which is what historians usually say (Indo-Scythian origin). But from within Jatts' own ancestral stories, they say the Gill tribe was actually descended from Greeks, possibly from the time of Alexander. I haven't seen a J2b2* match from many other Jatts, most of whom that I've run into online are from haplogroup L. The other story is that the Gills are descended from a Rajput king of a kingdom named 'Mithila' which encompassed Northern India and Nepal. There are more J2b2* results in Nepal and South/East India than there are in my neck of the woods in Pakistan which is also curiously close to the ancestral story (the spread to southern India is in my estimation and connecting the dots, most likely from the Deccan Sultanates when Muslim nobles from the North/West established Sultanates/kingdoms across southern India for several centuries, someone from J2b2* happened to be a prominent figure there... or it could have been much earlier, but I've only heard of Mithila, nothing from the south).

    When I get a chance I'll do the FtDNA test since it sounds like it tests for more subclades. How many are there now?

    EDIT: Found this from I guess same site as user Sangarius:



    http://www.flickr.com/photos/ydna-ha...72/8675629333/

    Y-DNA Haplogroup J2b2 M241 Geno 2.0 heatmap analysis - Indo Greek. Corresponding areas between Geno 2.0 J2b2 Y-DNA Heat Map and Indo-Greek territory in Pakistan and India. The hotspot between India and Qatar would be the area around the modern town of Karachi (Pakistan). The area of Karachi was known to the ancient Greeks by many names: Krokola, the place where Alexander the Great (Macedonia) camped to prepare a fleet for Babylonia after his campaign in the Indus Valley; 'Morontobara' (probably Manora island near Karachi harbor), from whence Alexander's admiral Nearchus set sail; and Barbarikon, a port of the Greco-Bactrian kingdom. This is also the area were the Indus Civilization was located. Several settlements/colonies were founded by Alexander the Great, some of which had as many as 7000 Macedonians living within their borders. The colony Alexandria on the Indus was home to approximately 10000 Thracian veterans fighting in the Macedonian Army. Several tribes in Pakistan to this day claim descend from Alexander the Greats Army. During the siege of the capital of the Mallians, modern Multan, Alexander was seriously wounded by an arrow; he owed his survival to Abreas, Peucestas and a bodyguard named Leonnatus, who protected the king with the sacred shield of Troy which they had taken years earler from the temple of Athena during Alexanders visit to the ancient city of Troy. While Alexander did not penetrate India so far eastwards to cover the all the J2b2 hotspots in India, his successor king Menander of the Indo Greek kingdom did. Eventually the Macedonian Indo-Greek satrapies were conquered by the Indian emperor Sandrokyptos from the Mauryan Empire. There are more theories about the presence of J2b(2) in India though. There are those for example who claim that some J2b(2) lineages from the Caucasus were part of the Indo-Aryan invasion of the indus valley alongside R1a and those who claim a Neolithic J2 expansion into India. Another theory even tells of Indian origins of the Greeks and Macedonians which would bring us back to the Balkans. Considering however the other findings regarding the rest of the J2b2 heatmap areas and excluding the Indian origin theory of the Greeks and Macedonians one can easily imagine the J2b2`s in India to be descended of the Army of Alexander the Great. (Greeks/Macedonians, Thracians)
    Edit #2: A pre-Alexander spread is also talked about. There were two main ethnic contributions to what is now Punjab. The most recent wave would be the Jatts, who came in around Alexander's time or shortly after, during the Indo-Scythian kingdoms. They intermarried and some clans merged with the Rajputs. They are almost indistinguishable from Rajputs today and traditionally Rajputs and Jatts have considered themselves highly related. Rajputs, however, came into India hundreds or even thousands of years before Jatts. When the people who are today called Jatts settled into India, they merged into some of the Rajput tribes and the Kshatriya caste, just as the Rajputs themselves did long before. Other groups who came in way back (the Rajputs are identified with that Aryan invasion of India theory, so Bronze Age sounds about right) include Kambojas (after whom Cambodia is named). Kambojas are another sub-group of Punjabi and intermarry with Rajputs and Jatts routinely. So if the J2b2* is not from the main Jatt migration around the time of the Indo-Greek/Indo-Scythian kingdoms around 2000 years ago, it could be from the Rajput era 3000 to 5000 years ago. But it would be downright amazing if it's from the Bronze Age and somehow the locals have retained the knowledge that their lineage originated all the way in Greece several thousand years later. The mere presence of this narrative suggests a more recent origin (since Rajputs have all but forgotten their ancestry outside India outside of groups like the Kamboj who technically aren't Rajput at all). A third possibility is that there were two J2b2* contributions. The original one in the Bronze Age (for the Nepalese and Western/Southern Indian populations) and another with the Indo-Greek kingdoms more recently (for the Punjabis), though that needlessly complicates things (though it's easily possible then as J2b2* should have been common enough among the Greeks and Macedonians who came to India with Alexander). An extension of this third possibility is that both origin stories are distinct but true. The J2b2* contribution at the turn of the millennium overlapped with the ancient Bronze Age contribution. In any case, the Alexander theory has the most weight I think just due to the fact that the locals actually remember their origin (as I said, the Gill tribe was the only one of the Jatt clans to have the Greek origin story).
    Last edited by Dr_McNinja; 08-25-2013 at 06:17 PM.

  14. #9
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,648
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    When I get a chance I'll do the FtDNA test since it sounds like it tests for more subclades. How many are there now?
    A marker test such as Y-DNA12 does not, in itself, test for subclades. But it establishes your DNA sample at FTDNA's lab, so that you can subsequently order SNP tests.

    Researchers in our field are continually discovering new subclades. But a fairly up-to-date tree is on the main page of the J-M102 Project. You can see that J2b2 (J-M241) has two immediate subclades, L283 (European) and Z2432 (Asian?). The European L283 branch then has successive subclades Z628, Z638, Z1296, Z1297, Z639, and Z1043.

    Most of these SNPs are probably examined by Geno 2.0, a test sold for $200 by National Geographic but actually performed by FTDNA. However, Geno 2.0 does not measure STRs (markers), so it is of little value for recent genealogy.

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lgmayka For This Useful Post:

     DMXX (08-25-2013),  Sangarius (08-26-2013)

  16. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,375
    Sex
    Location
    New York
    Ethnicity
    South Asian
    Nationality
    American
    mtDNA (M)
    M30b2a
    Y-DNA (P)
    J2b2-M241 (J-Y978*)

    United States of America Canada
    I hear you can transfer your 23andMe results to FtDNA. Could I do that and then order the SNP tests? Or do I have to give them a DNA sample too?

Page 1 of 45 12311 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •