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Thread: Help: are my repeated Mizrahi Jewish Gedmatch predictions legit?

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    Question Help: are my repeated Mizrahi Jewish Gedmatch predictions legit?

    Hi everyone,

    Can anyone please help me interpret my GEDMATCH results?

    My DNA kit is from 23andMe, using the new chip. The Admixture I get from 23andMe is: 64% European, 24.5% MENA, 0.4% East Asian and 11.1% unassigned. More detailed breakdown: European: Northwestern European 41.1% (Scandinavian 20%, French&German 1.5%, Finnish 1.2%, Broadly Northwestern European 18.4%), Southern European 6.0% (all Broadly)), Broadly European (16.4%). MENA is 22.7% Middle Eastern and 1.8% MENA, and the unassigned is, well, unassigned.

    I ran my raw data through multiple GEDMATCH genesis calculators, and I have pasted the results below. My parents are Swedish (father) and Iranian (mother). The Baltic and the Russian/Caucasian matches don't surprise me as there were lots of Balts who traveled to Sweden (even if I can't find them in my detailed family tree), and I think I have pinned down Azeri/Turkic heritage, and I have two Russian great-great-grandmothers which explains the Russian and vicinity matches. However, as you can see, Mizrahi Jewish is a recurring theme. So my question, is this a fluke of the calculators getting confused by my mixed ethnicity background and can this happen to non-Jewish Iranians as well, or if it comes up this often in different variations is it likely to be legit of Mizrahi heritage of some sort? I have ~50 part-to-full likely Ashkenazi DNA matches on 23andMe, and on GEDMATCH, as well as a lot of likely Jewish matches on GEDMATCH (with people with all three of Askhenazi, Sephardi and Mizrahi predicted for them). My Askhenazi predictions are nonexistant on 23andMe and only just over 2% on Eurogenes JTest, but maybe Mizrahi can hide in MENA/Southern European on 23andMe, because I really have no Southern European ancestry that I know of. I am particularly curious as apart from MDLP K23b which thinks I'm British Isles, and puntDNAL K13 which blanks completely on my Scandinavian side, most of them seem to pick up Caucasian and Northern European quite reliably, so I don't know if they would then randomly add Mizrahi Jewish identity on or not.

    Any help interpreting these results would be greatly appreciated!

    Thanks in advance,

    Caroline

    Eurogenes K13

    Iranian_Jewish + North_Swedish + Tabassaran + Ukrainian_Lviv 1.601486
    Iranian_Jewish + Kargopol_Russian + Lezgin + Swedish 1.684542
    Erzya + Iranian_Jewish + Lezgin + Norwegian 1.749589
    Kargopol_Russian + Kurdish_Jewish + Lezgin + Swedish 1.767277
    Iranian_Jewish + Lezgin + North_Swedish + Ukrainian_Lviv 1.769007
    Kurdish_Jewish + North_Swedish + Tabassaran + Ukrainian_Belgorod 1.781787
    Erzya + Iranian_Jewish + North_Dutch + Tabassaran 1.783136
    Estonian + Kurdish + Kurdish + North_Swedish 1.809926
    Kurdish_Jewish + North_Swedish + Southwest_Russian + Tabassaran 1.827045
    Iranian_Jewish + North_Swedish + Tabassaran + Ukrainian_Belgorod 1.852925
    Austrian + Finnish + Iranian_Jewish + Tabassaran 1.853712
    Kurdish_Jewish + North_Swedish + Tabassaran + Ukrainian_Lviv 1.859841
    Erzya + Iranian_Jewish + Lezgin + North_Dutch 1.860854
    Danish + Erzya + Iranian_Jewish + Tabassaran 1.862717
    Danish + Erzya + Kurdish_Jewish + Tabassaran 1.867827
    Iranian_Jewish + Lezgin + Russian_Smolensk + Swedish 1.903465
    Erzya + Iranian_Jewish + Norwegian + Tabassaran 1.909191
    Iranian_Jewish + Lezgin + Southwest_Russian + Swedish 1.912887
    East_Finnish + Kurdish_Jewish + Lezgin + North_German 1.913974
    Erzya + Kurdish_Jewish + North_Dutch + Tabassaran 1.917947

    Eurogenes EUTest V2 K15

    Estonian + Iranian_Jewish + Lezgin + Swedish 2.469685
    Estonian + Kurdish_Jewish + Lezgin + Swedish 2.681749
    Estonian + Iranian_Jewish + Lezgin + Norwegian 2.687595
    Iranian_Jewish + Southwest_Russian + Swedish + Tabassaran 2.736501
    Estonian + Iranian_Jewish + Swedish + Tabassaran 2.750764
    Iranian_Jewish + Swedish + Tabassaran + Ukrainian_Belgorod 2.781874
    Chechen + Estonian + Kurdish_Jewish + North_Swedish 2.799346
    Estonian + Iranian_Jewish + Lezgin + North_Swedish 2.818261
    Chechen + Estonian + Iranian_Jewish + North_Swedish 2.820424
    Estonian + Iranian_Jewish + Lezgin + West_Norwegian 2.821849
    Iranian_Jewish + Southwest_Russian + Tabassaran + West_Norwegian 2.871903
    Chechen + Estonian + Iranian_Jewish + Swedish 2.875420
    Iranian_Jewish + Tabassaran + Ukrainian_Belgorod + West_Norwegian 2.876438
    Chechen + Finnish + Iranian_Jewish + North_Swedish 2.904702
    Belorussian + Iranian_Jewish + Swedish + Tabassaran 2.910520
    Estonian + Kurdish_Jewish + Lezgin + North_Swedish 2.920429
    Chechen + Estonian + Kurdish_Jewish + Swedish 2.952886
    Finnish + Iranian_Jewish + Lezgin + North_Swedish 2.962350
    Estonian + Iranian_Jewish + North_German + Tabassaran 2.964822
    Finnish + Iranian_Jewish + Lezgin + Swedish 2.968763

    Gedrosia Eurasia K9 ASI

    English + English + Georgian_Jew + Uzbek_Afghan 2.158199
    Armenian + Croatian + Norwegian + Uzbek_Afghan 2.285163
    Czech + English + Georgian_Jew + Uzbek_Afghan 2.318654
    Armenian + Czech + English + Uzbek_Afghan 2.321369
    Armenian + Croatian + Icelandic + Uzbek_Afghan 2.333107
    Czech + English + Iranian_Jew + Uzbek_Afghan 2.357831
    Armenian + English + English + Uzbek_Afghan 2.359718
    English + Iranian_Jew + Norwegian + Uzbek_Afghan 2.371849
    English + English + Iranian_Jew + Uzbek_Afghan 2.372550
    Armenian + Czech + Hungarian + Uzbek_Afghan 2.373990
    Armenian + French + Norwegian + Uzbek_Afghan 2.379769
    Armenian + English + Scottish + Uzbek_Afghan 2.403958
    English + Icelandic + Iranian_Jew + Uzbek_Afghan 2.429998
    Armenian + English + Hungarian + Uzbek_Afghan 2.441890
    Armenian + Hungarian + Norwegian + Uzbek_Afghan 2.458542
    Armenian + Bulgarian + Lithuanian + Uzbek_Afghan 2.481752
    Armenian + Croatian + Czech + Uzbek_Afghan 2.482921
    French + Georgian_Jew + Icelandic + Uzbek_Afghan 2.483794
    English + Georgian_Jew + Scottish + Uzbek_Afghan 2.496342
    English + Georgian_Jew + Norwegian + Uzbek_Afghan 2.499453

    MDLP World

    German-North + Tadjik + Jew-Iran + German_V 1.359544
    German-North + Tadjik + Jew-Iran + Austrian 1.456946
    Tadjik + Norwegian_V + Jew-Iran + German_V 1.475045
    Tadjik + Slovakian + Jew_Azerbaijan + Croatian 1.499558
    Jew-Iraqi + Tadjik + Slovakian + German_V 1.502980
    Tadjik + Slovakian + Jew-Iran + British 1.515760
    Croatian_V + Tadjik + CEU_V + Jew_Tat 1.524125
    Jew_Iraqi + German-North + Tadjik + German_V 1.524468
    German-North + Tadjik + CEU_V + Jew-Iran 1.530841
    German-North + Jew-Iraqi + Tadjik + German_V 1.537381
    Tadjik + Norwegian_V + Jew-Iran + Austrian 1.543267
    Croatian_V + Tadjik + CEU_V + Jew_Azerbaijan 1.544307
    Croatian_V + Tadjik + Jew_Azerbaijan + German_V 1.547891
    Tadjik + Norwegian_V + Jew-Iran + Croatian 1.567458
    Jew-Iraqi + Tadjik + Czech + German_V 1.577507
    Tadjik + Czech + Jew_Azerbaijan + Croatian 1.585580
    Tadjik + Czech + Jew-Iran + German_V 1.586533
    German-North + Jew-Iraqi + Tadjik + Hungarian 1.589414
    Tadjik + Swedish + Jew-Iran + Austrian 1.595315
    Jew_Iraqi + Tadjik + Swedish + Croatian 1.595893

    MDLP World-22

    Azeri_derived + Kurd_derived + Swedish_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.227106
    Azeri_derived + Kurd_derived + Swedish_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.343629
    Azeri_derived + German-North_derived + Kurd_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.444164
    Kurd_derived + Kurd_derived + Swedish_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.456903
    Azeri_derived + German_derived + Kurd_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.521059
    Kurd_derived + Kurd_derived + Swedish_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.614838
    Georgian_derived + Iranian_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.628711
    Jew_Kurd_derived + Lezgin_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.649058
    Jew_Kurd_derived + Ossetian_derived + Swedish_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.653301
    Georgian_derived + Iranian_derived + Swedish_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.656380
    German-North_derived + Kurd_derived + Kurd_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.710406
    Georgian_derived + Iranian_derived + Swedish_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.726301
    Azeri_derived + Azeri_derived + Swedish_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.737640
    Azeri_derived + Azeri_derived + Swedish_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.780908
    Iranian_derived + Ossetian_derived + Swedish_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.805343
    Jew_Kurd_derived + Lak_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.806462
    Jew-Uzbekistan_derived + Ossetian_derived + Swedish_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.817564
    Iranian_derived + Ossetian_derived + Swedish_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.819077
    Azeri_derived + Azeri_derived + German_derived + Swedish_V_derived 2.821923
    Azeri_derived + Kurd_derived + Swedish_derived + Swedish_derived 2.827996

    MDLP K23b

    Belarusian_South_ + Iranian_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.058570
    Estonian_ + Iranian_ + Irish_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.085979
    Iranian_ + Latvian_ + Turk_Kayseri_ + Welsh_ 3.096718
    Belarusian_South_ + Iranian_ + Orcadian_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.099471
    Estonian_ + Iranian_ + Turk_Kayseri_ + Welsh_ 3.109301
    Belarusian_Russian_ + Iranian_ + Orcadian_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.109761
    Iranian_ + Mixed_East_Slav_ + Orcadian_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.112775
    Belarusian_Russian_ + Iranian_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.118864
    Balt_ + Iranian_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.120336
    Iranian_ + Mixed_East_Slav_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.122899
    English_Cornwall_GBR_ + Iranian_ + Latvian_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.152783
    English_Cornwall_GBR_ + Estonian_ + Iranian_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.173779
    Icelandic_ + Iranian_ + Russian-North-West_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.177461
    French_ + Iranian_ + Kurd_North_ + Latvian_ 3.178715
    Belarusian_ + Iranian_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.179602
    Belarusian_ + Iranian_ + Orcadian_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.187787
    Balt_ + Iranian_ + Irish_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.189972
    Estonian_ + Iranian_ + Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.192622
    CEU_ + Estonian_ + Iranian_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.199622
    Iranian_ + Irish_ + Latvian_ + Turk_Kayseri_ 3.201926

    puntDNAL K13

    1 Iranian + Iranian + Polish + Russian 2.856178
    2 Iranian + Iranian + Latvian + Ukrainian 2.896813
    3 Belarusian + Estonian + Iranian + Iranian 2.921596
    4 Iranian + Iranian + Mordovian + Polish 2.921711
    5 Iranian + Iranian + Polish + Polish 2.947681
    6 Belarusian + Iranian + Iranian + Polish 2.948717
    7 Iranian + Iranian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian 2.962101
    8 Belarusian + Iranian + Iranian + Lithuanian 2.983086
    9 Armenian + Makrani + Polish + Polish 2.983449
    10 Belarusian + Iranian + Iranian + Russian 2.984340
    11 Belarusian + Iranian + Iranian + Latvian 3.016632
    12 Armenian + Belarusian + Lithuanian + Makrani 3.017139
    13 Armenian + Belarusian + Estonian + Makrani 3.019338
    14 Estonian + Iranian + Iranian + Mordovian 3.025019
    15 Chechen + Iranian + Moldavian + Russian 3.029352
    16 Armenian + Belarusian + Latvian + Makrani 3.033225
    17 Iranian + Kurdish + Polish + Russian 3.036316
    18 Iranian + Kurdish + Mordovian + Polish 3.081951
    19 Afghan_Pashtun + Assyrian + Latvian + Ukrainian 3.102718
    20 Estonian + Iranian + Iranian + Ukrainian 3.104867
    Last edited by ChemProf; 10-28-2017 at 02:56 PM.

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    Hi Caroline,

    Each utility will have a different database they are comparing your results too and the interpretation of those results can vary from one utility to another. It looks like from what you've said about your ancestry that MDLP World-22 is the closest..do you agree? Most of my results seem to weigh very heavily from my maternal side and show a lot of German, Austrian and Hungarian but that isn't the whole picture so sometimes it's hard to tell.

    George

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    Hi George!

    Thanks for taking a look at this. What I am a bit skeptical with the World-22 is that it thinks I am Kurdish until quite far down, but maybe Kurdish and Iranian are just extremely close? What I am most surprised about is that in addition to the e.g. Eurogenes results, I am also getting a lot of Jewish matches, which is why I wonder if there is something to it if it keeps cropping up across the calculators (even in World-22, although quite far down the list)?

    Thanks again,

    Caroline

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChemProf View Post
    Hi George!

    Thanks for taking a look at this. What I am a bit skeptical with the World-22 is that it thinks I am Kurdish until quite far down, but maybe Kurdish and Iranian are just extremely close? What I am most surprised about is that in addition to the e.g. Eurogenes results, I am also getting a lot of Jewish matches, which is why I wonder if there is something to it if it keeps cropping up across the calculators (even in World-22, although quite far down the list)?

    Thanks again,

    Caroline
    Hi Caroline,

    How far back have you been able to trace your tree on the Iranian side? You mentioned it's a detailed tree but would be interesting to know. Sometimes it can just be a matter of shared DNA but I would caution against a specific religious or ethnic group unless you have a known history which connects you to them. It doesn't mean there isn't a connection but I've seen these matches change and go back and forth as reference databases are updated. Definitely possible for an Iranian person to have a connection to the Kurds.

    George

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChemProf View Post
    I have two Russian great-great-grandmothers...I have ~50 part-to-full likely Ashkenazi DNA matches on 23andMe
    A number of possibilities, given what you say:

    – Some of the Russian is Ashkenazi
    – Some of the Iranian is Kurdish (some part of which may be Jewish)
    – Shared ancestry is through another nearby shared source e.g. Tat-speaking or Bukharan Jews
    – Some of the Iranian is crypto-Mizrahi/Sephardi. In parts of West Asia, especially Syria and Lebanon, Mizrahi and Sephardi are intertwined. I have Sephardi ancestry from Syria and have matches in traditionally Sephardi places like Morocco and Bulgaria and Turkey, but also in traditionally Mizrahi countries like Iran and Iraq.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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    The extended family tree is on my father's side, where Swedes kept really good records. Sadly, I have not been as successful on my mother's side, due to lack of access to Iranian records, so have had to go with what my mother has told me. I can go back to great-great-grandparents, then one line gets really easy to go back very far (Qajar royalty...Qajar dynasty are Azeri/Turkic in origin, hence the DNA matches), but for example I am matched to a lot of Russian Jews and I have matrilineally two Russian great-great-grandmothers (sisters), and my direct matrilineal great-great-grandmother (Russian)'s Iranian husbands name was Mirza Moti. Mirza is an honorific given to royalty when after the first name, but was given to also for example distinguished military commanders etc, and before the name just refers to nobility/aristocracy. Moti I haven't come across as an Iranian name before, but in Hebrew is common as a diminutive of Mordechai, which of course is a Jewish name with strong links to Persian Jewish history. Hence you can imagine my curiosity when I see these results! But I don't know how much would be fanciful speculation/extrapolating from very circumstantial evidence.

    Caroline

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChemProf View Post
    The extended family tree is on my father's side, where Swedes kept really good records. Sadly, I have not been as successful on my mother's side, due to lack of access to Iranian records, so have had to go with what my mother has told me. I can go back to great-great-grandparents, then one line gets really easy to go back very far (Qajar royalty...Qajar dynasty are Azeri/Turkic in origin, hence the DNA matches), but for example I am matched to a lot of Russian Jews and I have matrilineally two Russian great-great-grandmothers (sisters), and my direct matrilineal great-great-grandmother (Russian)'s Iranian husbands name was Mirza Moti. Mirza is an honorific given to royalty when after the first name, but was given to also for example distinguished military commanders etc, and before the name just refers to nobility/aristocracy. Moti I haven't come across as an Iranian name before, but in Hebrew is common as a diminutive of Mordechai, which of course is a Jewish name with strong links to Persian Jewish history. Hence you can imagine my curiosity when I see these results! But I don't know how much would be fanciful speculation/extrapolating from very circumstantial evidence.

    Caroline
    Very interesting history! Have you had your mtDNA analyzed yet? Others here of Jewish descent may have a similar name that could connect for you. The only Hebrew one I can think of would be "Malka" which is a variation of Queen. I used to have a friend who was a Persian Jew and if I was still in communication with her she would be able to help but unfortunately not.

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    Thanks AJL! We cross posted so I posted my post-above the same time you wrote yours. This is what I am also wondering: Askhenazi to some extent through the grandmothers (the Ashkenazi Jews I match to frequently have Russian names and/or in the case of 23andMe also state Russian and/or Eastern European grandparent birth locations, and then some sort of crypto-Jewish Mizrahi/Sephardi links that give me the Sephardi matches. Specially in light of my Russian great-great-grandmother marrying someone called Moti (he was a business man and they met on one of his trips to Russia, she came back with him).

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    George: I would really love to have more people I could match to in order to test this - I guess matches to individuals are a bit more reliable since as you said the Admixtures rely on references populations. Malka is a beautiful name. Queen is "Malekeh" in Farsi, so another variation. It's not usually used as a name, but in e.g. older generation I have a great-aunt called "Malektaj" (Queen throne). My mtDNA haplotype is H11a2, which is very European and uncommon in Iran (but direct matrilineally that is where I go Russian).

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    PS AJL: we have a very close haplogroup - I saw you are H11a2a3, I am H11a2, when I did more detailed analysis on it closest match was H11a2a2 followed by H11a2a3, but I don't match either fully.

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