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Thread: How to group Italian samples in order to obtain good references?

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    How to group Italian samples in order to obtain good references?

    After doing it with French samples, itīs the time of Italian ones.

    2 samples, North and South making the means with most representative references from each Italian zone?

    Which samples would be the best ones to discriminate accurately North and South Italy among modern pop averages datasheet refrences?

    Ideas,opinions,suggestions please.

    Code:
    Italian_Abruzzo,0.1126848,0.1488017,-0.0006749,-0.034765,0.0161163,-0.0125501,0.0007792,-0.0022834,0.0037891,0.0208133,0.0005128,0.0036677,-0.0056336,-0.0039041,-0.0061502,-0.0014655,0.0018596,0.0002667,0.0033608,-0.0036926,-0.003809,0.001334,0.0008886,0.001706,-0.0009642
    Italian_Aosta_Valley,0.1269696,0.1460839,0.0392582,0.0047481,0.036976,-0.0015478,0.0024088,0.0028038,0.0102262,0.0219594,-0.004766,0.0049306,-0.0147248,-0.010356,0.0074986,0.0062582,0.0051892,-0.000285,0.003375,-0.0005378,0.0029261,0.0019476,-0.0009181,0.0081396,-5.98e-05
    Italian_Apulia,0.1107119,0.1482673,-0.0037713,-0.0401381,0.0158388,-0.0151159,-0.0009557,-0.0016153,0.0027951,0.0206898,-0.0002273,0.0038765,-0.0064717,0.0011929,-0.0081071,-0.0038982,0.0016691,0.0005997,0.0027485,-0.0051524,-0.0038098,0.0019619,0.0017584,0.0014379,-0.0005667
    Italian_Basilicata,0.1092701,0.1466877,-0.0049864,-0.0405186,0.0132674,-0.0153391,0.0010444,-0.0016667,0.0043403,0.019236,1e-07,0.0030306,-0.0071026,-0.0007799,-0.0090631,-0.0015763,0.0058818,-0.0003238,0.003366,-0.0051273,-0.0018854,0.0022396,0.0023007,0.002691,0.0003459
    Italian_Bergamo,0.1238394,0.1507044,0.0306976,-0.0117572,0.0361914,-0.0026774,0.001081,0.0017076,0.010758,0.0276634,-0.0013966,0.0068042,-0.0128442,-0.0062756,-0.0034744,-0.0041634,-0.0003652,0.0006588,0.0051536,-0.0055526,-0.001048,-2.48e-05,-0.0041902,0.0037836,0.0009578
    Italian_Calabria,0.1028203,0.1462363,-0.011942,-0.0466197,0.0125147,-0.0117133,-0.0024283,-0.0031537,0.0044993,0.0215037,0.000433,0.0027977,-0.0055003,-0.000963,-0.009636,-0.0052593,0.0068237,0.0009713,0.0051537,-0.003043,-0.0026203,-0.0023907,-0.0001643,0.0037753,0.00012
    Italian_Campania,0.1077999,0.1480133,-0.0089094,-0.0436185,0.0137461,-0.0161523,-0.0004504,-0.002269,0.0041928,0.0222025,0.0007848,0.0023355,-0.0050607,-0.0017088,-0.0066447,-0.0007843,0.0027761,-0.0002586,0.0025872,-0.004028,-0.0040866,0.0018496,0.001058,0.0019682,0.0002893
    Italian_Jew,0.0949283,0.1456271,-0.0186674,-0.0564927,0.0112941,-0.0245423,-0.003995,-0.002792,0.0128851,0.0191349,0.0045143,0.00021,0.0021557,-0.0028762,-0.0066097,-0.0012331,-0.0011995,-0.0010515,-0.0011187,-0.0035893,-0.0039059,-0.0015456,-0.000123,0.0023617,0.0028741
    Italian_Lazio,0.1146768,0.1525832,0.006694,-0.0350455,0.0213115,-0.0115738,0.0024675,0.000519,0.0068512,0.0234627,0.001299,0.0028475,-0.007656,-0.0070875,-0.0068538,0.0041432,-0.000228,-0.0005068,0.0018225,-0.005065,-0.002745,0.0033695,-0.0003697,-0.0003613,-0.000479
    Italian_Liguria,0.113823,0.146236,0.027153,-0.011951,0.029236,-0.002231,0.00235,0.001154,0.009613,0.025331,-0.009743,0.002847,-0.013082,0.001101,-0.001086,-0.012463,-0.00665,-0.00038,0.003771,0.00075,-0.00025,0.000989,0.003944,0.000723,0.000599
    Italian_Lombardy,0.1245224,0.147861,0.0279822,-0.0137598,0.0327446,-0.007753,0.000658,0,0.0103898,0.0299232,-0.0025008,0.008932,-0.0143606,-0.0047066,-0.0008686,-0.0078758,-0.0083448,0.0017738,0.0034442,-0.004102,-0.002246,0.0012366,-0.0006656,0.0030602,0.0008382
    Italian_Marche,0.1176646,0.1482038,0.0086029,-0.0290498,0.0213692,-0.0103538,0.0006462,-0.0031152,0.0061358,0.0213101,-0.0005888,0.0043836,-0.008548,-0.0016944,-0.0032828,-0.0023286,-0.000383,0.001259,0.0026948,-0.0033219,-0.0009671,0.0024574,0.0006394,0.0037278,-0.0016691
    Italian_Molise,0.112685,0.146744,0.00132,-0.0334305,0.0155415,-0.0132475,0.004465,-0.003,0.00225,0.019408,0.003735,0.003372,-0.008102,-0.002684,-0.0071255,-0.0031155,0.005085,0.001837,0.0023255,-0.0080035,-0.0013725,0.0045135,-0.000801,0.0035545,0.0001195
    Italian_Northeast,0.1256119,0.1435524,0.035611,0.0017304,0.0354352,0.0020319,0.0031725,0.0020439,0.0068808,0.0159456,-0.0023661,0.0047744,-0.0083887,-0.0003736,-0.0045758,0.0003598,0.0040232,0.0008869,0.0038337,-0.0025993,-0.0035295,0.0004328,-0.0017957,0.0045702,0.0003593
    Italian_Piedmont,0.1213354,0.1473534,0.0208925,-0.0145996,0.0292668,-0.0058844,0.0028435,0.0001615,0.0074653,0.0241279,-0.0002273,0.0063544,-0.0098859,-0.0045141,-0.0015744,-0.0027048,0.0011213,0.0008997,0.0021747,-0.0038269,-0.0025705,0.0018548,-0.0024033,0.0038316,-0.0014967
    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige,0.1250429,0.1459461,0.0346411,-0.0035069,0.0372377,-0.0033864,0.0033571,0.0029997,0.011307,0.0238729,-0.0030157,0.0050099,-0.0134431,-0.002831,-0.0005237,-0.0018751,0.0005961,0.001665,0.0042739,-0.0030194,-0.0014259,0.0028086,-0.0005106,0.000637,-0.0036781
    Italian_Tuscany,0.1186036,0.1487413,0.0136014,-0.0204997,0.0261587,-0.0090546,-0.00047,-0.0013845,0.0074991,0.0238972,-0.0002273,0.0054552,-0.0118631,-0.0045965,-0.0023797,-0.0002917,0.0040332,0.0004815,0.0038463,-0.0023929,-0.0012063,0.0024647,-0.0010436,0.00388,-0.0015885
    Italian_Umbria,0.1171113,0.1474776,0.0077941,-0.0279933,0.0200379,-0.0091724,-0.0008617,-0.0024103,0.0052267,0.025918,-0.0003788,0.0053953,-0.0101584,-0.0053214,-0.0024883,0.0005747,0.0069538,0.0005912,0.0010613,-0.0023344,-0.0034107,0.0007556,0.0003149,0.0030391,-0.0010911
    Italian_Veneto,0.1256322,0.1482672,0.0303111,-0.0061572,0.0342755,-0.0004532,0.0020416,0.0020047,0.0100346,0.0230415,-0.0022328,0.0054889,-0.0105363,-0.0038189,-0.0026974,0.000953,0.0034796,0.0019557,0.0028518,-0.0042286,-0.0009982,0.0028594,-0.0001309,0.001318,-0.0021479
    I have already made the Sicilian average:

    Code:
    Sicilian_Average,0.10168200,0.14606700,-0.00383415,-0.03832935,0.01861865,-0.01259680,-0.00129250,0.00030765,0.01046465,0.02180770,0.00535865,0.00349700,-0.00418735,0.00250000,-0.00409415,-0.00483950,-0.00236850,-0.00059115,0.00180165,-0.00500250,0.00039535,0.00175180,-0.00254700,-0.00060250,0.00031915
    Sicilian_Average,=Sicilian_East,+Sicilian_West

    Target: Sicilian_Average
    Distance: 0.0000% / 0.00000000
    50.0 Sicilian_East
    50.0 Sicilian_West

    There is only 1 Sardinian sample in modern pop. averages datasheet, so nothing to do with it.

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    I believe the best averages for North Italian are Italian_Bergamo and Italian_Lombardy. Lombardia is the most populous region of Italy.

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    help me try to understand something about my minor Mediterranean ancestry. I am a vast majority N.W. European. my Italian comes from the south, and there is suspect northern Italian as well but I find only a surname and family story for that. If I run my unscaled G25 through this of course it will only show Italian populations, but I wonder if the break down of those populations could shed some light on my Italian ancestry. my scaled g25 shows 100% Aosta Valley. no surprise there and I have at least 75% or more N.W. European. my unscaled g25 data shows several Italian regional breakdowns so I was wondering if that could be interpreted somehow with any measure of validity?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by JerryS.; 08-24-2020 at 07:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mokordo View Post
    After doing it with French samples, itīs the time of Italian ones.
    Sorry for my distraction, I have seemingly missed something. What were you referring to?

    edit: ignore my question, I found your thread. Sorry again.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    help me try to understand something about my minor Mediterranean ancestry. I am a vast majority N.W. European. my Italian comes from the south, and there is suspect northern Italian as well but I find only a surname and family story for that. If I run my unscaled G25 through this of course it will only show Italian populations, but I wonder if the break down of those populations could shed some light on my Italian ancestry. my scaled g25 shows 100% Aosta Valley. no surprise there and I have at least 75% or more N.W. European. my unscaled g25 data shows several Italian regional breakdowns so I was wondering if that could be interpreted somehow with any measure of validity?

    Thanks.
    Regardless of North/South etc.. it s unlikely at this point you will be able to figure any of this out via G25. I ve seen your results, and its minor enough that it is unlikely that any results would shed much light on things, especially since you get strong NW Euro %'s.

    That said, your 23 and me results, if I understood what you said correctly, showed Veneto as the #1 region followed by others? They usually get the #1 correct, its the rest that are usually due to marriages etc... also the fact that you get 0% West Asian. If thats the case, I would recommend tightening up what you think you know via documented paper trails instead of relying on test results to get to the facts.
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminā (RC) Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    Regardless of North/South etc.. it s unlikely at this point you will be able to figure any of this out via G25. I ve seen your results, and its minor enough that it is unlikely that any results would shed much light on things, especially since you get strong NW Euro %'s.

    That said, your 23 and me results, if I understood what you said correctly, showed Veneto as the #1 region followed by others? They usually get the #1 correct, its the rest that are usually due to marriages etc... also the fact that you get 0% West Asian. If thats the case, I would recommend tightening up what you think you know via documented paper trails instead of relying on test results to get to the facts.
    yes, 23/me is the only DNA test that I've taken that did not show west Asian (though it does show trace Somalia). the other companies that decipher the 23/me raw data it show it, but 23/me itself does not. even Ancestry* showed it as trace if I recall correctly.

    that said, my question was how, if at all could this population collection infer anything from my data?

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    Yes, the answer is unlikely to help. That’s why I suggested you solve it the old fashioned way .

    Did 23 & Me list Veneto as your #1 region?


    Edit*. Let me say that it would take a lot of work to develop a model that may or may not help you. But just taking population averages won’t really be of any use.
    Last edited by digital_noise; 08-24-2020 at 09:44 PM.
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminā (RC) Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    Yes, the answer is unlikely to help. That’s why I suggested you solve it the old fashioned way .

    Did 23 & Me list Veneto as your #1 region?


    Edit*. Let me say that it would take a lot of work to develop a model that may or may not help you. But just taking population averages won’t really be of any use.
    yes, 23/me has Veneto and Campania shaded the same dark blue with Calabria looking a shade lighter.

    I figured that this pop sample group here might help in this way.....

    whether my Italian is 10% or 20% for easy numbers, this model would show only my Italian leaning. so for example if my unscaled data showed half north and half south, it could possibly indicate that 10% is 5 north and 5 south, or 20% is 10 north and 10 south etc.... I've already played with this here but did not post any of the data because I don't know if it would have any relevance at all. with the Sicilian sample I get some Sicilian, without it I get Italian Jew in its place, the rest being north in either mode. that's something to discuss if anything can be be inferred.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    help me try to understand something about my minor Mediterranean ancestry. I am a vast majority N.W. European. my Italian comes from the south, and there is suspect northern Italian as well but I find only a surname and family story for that. If I run my unscaled G25 through this of course it will only show Italian populations, but I wonder if the break down of those populations could shed some light on my Italian ancestry. my scaled g25 shows 100% Aosta Valley. no surprise there and I have at least 75% or more N.W. European. my unscaled g25 data shows several Italian regional breakdowns so I was wondering if that could be interpreted somehow with any measure of validity?

    Thanks.
    Coincidentally, my 2cd Great Grandfather and his parents were all Sicilian but I never get any Sicilian. I also get 100% Aosta_Valley.

    Distance to: JMcB_scaled
    0.05285513 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    0.06009734 Italian_Northeast
    0.06432564 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.06858750 Italian_Veneto
    0.07417266 Italian_Bergamo
    0.07876055 Italian_Lombardy


    It works as a nice proxy percentage wise, so I shrug my shoulders and carry on.

    However, as my nephew used to say: what’s up with that?
    Last edited by JMcB; 08-24-2020 at 09:58 PM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Italian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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    I could be wrong but I don’t think it works that way for most of us who are mixed.
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminā (RC) Italy

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