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Thread: The Hungarians - Magyars

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username View Post
    It's quite puzzling they're not finding any significant genetic overlap with Finno-Ugric populations. How can then the conqueror and the modern Hungarians speak a Finno-Ugric language? Something just doesn't add up. Unless the Avars were Finno-Ugric speaking and their language persisted into modern Hungarian? There's no evidence of that plus it's generally hypothesized that they were also some type of Turkic speakers.

    And how come out of 102 samples from 8 different cemeteries only 4 Y hgs were sequenced?
    At the end of the ninth century a new development took place in the Carpathian Basin: the people that later became known as the Magyars arrived. Vámbéry estimates the numbers of the new arrivals as being “a few thousand” [néhány ezer], and he has no doubt that these Turkish-Tatar warriors melted into the mass of local peoples. In doing so, Vámbéry explains, they exchanged their “pure Turkish language” for the “mixed language” of their Pannonian “relatives.” Though the new arrivals were few, their “militaristic spirit”, characteristic of their not yet adulterated nomadic lifestyle, inspired the Carpathian Basin’s post-Avar population to rise to remarkable deeds again as exemplified by their military expeditions far and wide in Europe. Furthermore, according to Vámbéry, the union of these two peoples had long-term benefits for the newly arrived conquerors as well.

    https://ahea.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/...ewFile/110/297

  2. #32
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    http://real.mtak.hu/88674/1/Bernert_AK2018.pdf

    Bernert Zs., Fehér T., Varga D., Székely G., Németh E.: Testimony from the Bones of Hungarian King Béla III – Origins of the Árpád Dynasty. The role of applications based on machine learning is continuously growing in the industry, health sector/bioinformatics and scientific research. American researchers published a bit more than 10 years ago the first machine learning algorithms, which were able to safely predict Y-SNP based haplogroups from Y-STR data.
    The goal of the present study was to predict with machine learning algorithms the SNP-based subgroup of three ancient DNA samples (King Béla III and two Khazar samples) belonging to Y-DNA Haplogroup R1a, in order to predict their geographic origin and mutual genetic relatedness more accurately. This is the first study applying machine learning algorithms for researching Hungarian prehistory.
    Based on the Y-STR haplotype of King Béla III, we estimated with the machine learning algorithm in the first step that he belonged to the R1a-Z93 subgroup that is most common among Indo-Iranic and Turkic speaking peoples. The second step predicted that King Béla III belonged to the Z2123 subgroup of R1a-Z93. The Phylogenetic analysis showed King Béla III most likely belonged to the relatively rare YP451+ YP449- subgroup of Z2123, which practically only appears in the North Caucasus, especially among Karachays and Balkars.
    Based on our results, we could hypothetically conclude that the Árpád Dynasty has common origin with one ethnic component of the Karachay people.
    In our study we proved that it is possible to increase the accuracy of Y-DNA haplogroup prediction of historical aDNA samples with mathematical methods using contemporary Y-STR haplotypes. With the help of this method, larger historical aDNA studies could save a lot of research funds and DNA carrying out tailored deep SNP-testing of samples instead of using general SNaPshots.
    Keywords: Physical anthropology; Archaeogenetics; Machine learning; Y-SNP prediction; Y-STR; Gradient boosting; Árpád Dynasty; King Béla III; Hungarian ethnogenesis.

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gravetti View Post
    Mitogenomic data indicate admixture components of Asian Hun and Srubnaya origin in the Hungarian Conquerors

    It has been widely accepted that the Finno-Ugric Hungarian language, originated from proto Uralic people, was brought into the Carpathian Basin by the Hungarian Conquerors (...)
    The term "Finno-Ugric" in linguistics afaik originated/took off in the 18th and 19th centuries and to my own knowledge there was never a Finno-Ugric Urvolk as such nor a definite Finno-Ugric origin language in the strict sense of the term.

    Sumerian was just as agglutinative as Hungarian, and Sumerian words and word formations are strikingly similar to Hungarian in many respects - The Sumerian language has been the leading language of the Middle East for millennia of course. The development of an agglutinating language with the consistent vocabulary derived from Hungarian is a relatively long process, therefore it can overall be assumed that Hungarian is a very ancient language.

    A while ago i found an interesting post on this too, can't remember where it was from but here are its contents:

    Some historians believe that Hungarians (Savard Hungarians) at one point in time lived around the Caucasus region and were joined by a few caucasian tribes that eventually travelled with them to Hungary. It is also mentioned that Hungarians lived nearby Iranian peoples and were influenced by Iranian tribes and some very old Iranian words are still evident in the Hungarian language.
    Although the Finnish language is also agglutinating and stable, it shows too many differences to Hungarian. The number of consonants is noticeably low in Finnish, in Hungarian there are about 14 consonants more than in Finnish. On the other hand, Finnish is relatively rich in vowels, the number of vowels is roughly equal to the Hungarian. The vocabulary of the two languages ​​is very different aswell - There are hardly similar words with the same meaning abundantly found. Finnish and Estonian are roughly similar to High German and Dutch, whereas Hungarian is very different from both. There are a lot of similar words with Turkish from the general life, agriculture, biology, u. a. (eg, teve, balta, bika, sok, kicsi, etc.) so in that respect there definitely seems to be a strong connection, perhaps derived from the bulgar migrations and the contacts between the Magyars and turkic Chuvash tribes.

    It must be considered that just as agglutinating as Hungarian are Hunnish (very close to Hungarian in the vocabulary) Basque, the Turkic languages, Persian and the ancient Egyptian language. There are some striking similarities in logic with the Japanese and the Manchurian language, probably due to Ainu (Hunnic) mediation too.

    There is undoubtedly a connection to the Finnish and Estonian languages, but the connections are much broader in nature than some of those die-hard pan-turanist/"finno-ugric" ideologues like to pretend.

    Modern-day DNA studies have also shown that austrians and hungarians are basically cousins genetically speaking. Of course there are still examples that differ from this but the overall evidence cannot be denied imo.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hans84 View Post
    The term "Finno-Ugric" in linguistics afaik originated/took off in the 18th and 19th centuries and to my own knowledge there was never a Finno-Ugric Urvolk as such nor a definite Finno-Ugric origin language in the strict sense of the term.
    How about reading some related academic research? Of course there was a Uralic "Urvolk" and they indeed spoke Proto Uralic, apparently somewhere next to Volga-Kama area. That being said, most of Hungarian genes were apparently not inherited from those people. See, genes don't dictate languages, even if it sounds complicated to you.

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  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    How about reading some related academic research? Of course there was a Uralic "Urvolk" and they indeed spoke Proto Uralic, apparently somewhere next to Volga-Kama area. See, genes don't dictate languages, even if it sounds complicated to you.
    No need to employ ad hominem/get insulting there just because you disagree with some of the contents of my post.

    That being said, most of Hungarian genes were apparently not inherited from those people.
    Yes, that is what i was saying in my post if you had cared to read it fully instead of getting emotional right off the bat. Hence, the entire pan-turanist/turanist (which includes a finno-ugric component) ideology falls apart at the seams when you consider these findings which i mentioned.

    There is ample evidence that hungarians are genetically not really related in the way it's being claimed by some to "finno-ugrics" either so not sure what you're trying to get at anyways.

    I'm not denying you your national heritage or anything, i just find it ludicrous to suggest that finns and hungarians derived from the exact same people/shared the exact same origins (genetic, geographic or otherwise) just becaue of some vague lingual links. Again, reading the post you responded to fully would probably clear up any remaining confusion on your part in this regard.
    Last edited by hans84; 02-03-2019 at 12:30 AM.

  8. #36
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    Another observation [of this study] is that “Austria and Germany, despite both being German speaking, have quite different Y-DNA groups. However, Austria and Hungary look remarkably similar.”

    It was this reference to the Austrian genetic connection that excited Hungarians. It seems that the Austrians are more than “in-laws” (sógorok), as they are called in Hungary, which of course is a reference to the long-standing constitutional relationship that existed between Austria and Hungary. They are in fact brothers and most likely sisters as far as their DNA makeup is concerned.
    http://hungarianspectrum.org/2015/05...n-great-plain/

    (...) "It is most likely that by the end of the thirteenth century the Asian markers pretty well disappeared from the population mix."
    https://hungarianspectrum.wordpress....-then-and-now/


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  10. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by hans84 View Post
    No need to employ ad hominem/get insulting there just because you disagree with some of the contents of my post.
    Not just some, most of that what you write does not make a lot of sense. Or actually any sense, now that I reread some of that stuff.

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