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Thread: The Hungarians - Magyars

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username View Post
    Three possibilities...

    1.As these Magyars were migrating they gradually absorbed a lot of Eastern European Dna into their population on the way, but their language persisted.
    2.They originally had relatively the same genetic make up as they do today prior to the migration from a pretty far away place, even though they didn't speak a Slavic or even an IE language.
    3.At some point the language was imposed by the "elites" for some sort of cultural, religious and political reasons, and those elites couldn't have been the nomad, pagan war gangs from the 9th century invading and raiding Europe. I don't see how they would cause the language shift on a much bigger population or why they would even care for that matter, those invading war gangs which didn't leave much of a genetic trace could only melt into the population or eventually get exterminated by their enemies.
    I guess it was a combination of 1 and 3, with scenario no 1 playing a more important role than previously suspected.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    I guess it was a combination of 1 and 3, with scenario no 1 playing a more important role than previously suspected.
    I would agree. And I think this explanation similarly applies to the Anatolian Turks.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    R1a among modern Hungarian is overwhelmingly from Slavic origin.
    You mean pre-Slavic, right ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geborgenheit View Post
    You mean pre-Slavic, right ?
    Why go so far back, the Hungarisation of Slovaks and other Slavic minorities in 18-19c. is a well known fact. Some of the leaders of the Hungarian nationalist movement in 19 c. were in fact with Slovak origin. There was some opposition to the Gemanisation of AustroHungary and who had the most glorious past - the Magyars, of course. Hungarian language was introduced at schools and in the mixed regions Slavs preferred to identify as Hungarians.

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  6. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Why go so far back, the Hungarisation of Slovaks and other Slavic minorities in 18-19c. is a well known fact. Some of the leaders of the Hungarian nationalist movement in 19 c. were in fact with Slovak origin. There was some opposition to the Gemanisation of AustroHungary and who had the most glorious past - the Magyars, of course. Hungarian language was introduced at schools and in the mixed regions Slavs preferred to identify as Hungarians.
    The exaggeration of Magyarization is futile. The nobles of Slovak ethnicity got Magyarized (slowly), but the rural masses kept their identity.

    Take a look at this (Wiki, Hungarians):

    "A 2018 study states that mtDNA sub-clades like H5a1m, T2a1c, and W3a1d1, which were found in recent Hungarian samples, imply that the Hungarians, Estonians and Finns share pan-European relationships. The molecular dating of the identified mtDNA sub-clades shows that their age exceeds the estimated time of the Hungarian-Slavic contact period in the Carpathian Basin. The results reflect that Slavs, Finn-Ugrians and other European peoples shared a common genetic substratum on the steppes of Eastern Europe."

    From the paper:

    "we cannot confirm the Hungarian-Slavic contacts using molecular dating of the identified mtDNA sub-clades, since their age exceeds the estimated time of the contact period and varies from 1.3 kya (for K1c1j) to 5.2 kya (for T2b25a1) "
    Last edited by fakirbakir; 10-02-2018 at 08:13 AM.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username View Post
    Three possibilities...

    1.As these Magyars were migrating they gradually absorbed a lot of Eastern European Dna into their population on the way, but their language persisted.
    2.They originally had relatively the same genetic make up as they do today prior to the migration from a pretty far away place, even though they didn't speak a Slavic or even an IE language.
    3.At some point the language was imposed by the "elites" for some sort of cultural, religious and political reasons, and those elites couldn't have been the nomad, pagan war gangs from the 9th century invading and raiding Europe. I don't see how they would cause the language shift on a much bigger population or why they would even care for that matter, those invading war gangs which didn't leave much of a genetic trace could only melt into the population or eventually get exterminated by their enemies.
    http://acta.bibl.u-szeged.hu/16611/1...39_243-253.pdf

    http://www.academia.edu/1899093/The_...garian_history

    The
    archaeological record seems to confirm earlier suggestions that Levedia was not an independent settlement territory of the ancient Hungarians, but was part of the probably easterly areas of Etelköz

    The chronology of the finds from the southern Urals and the Dnieper region suggests a relatively rapid migration of the ancient Hungarians no earlier than the beginning of the 9th century, as was earlier suggested by Soviet-Russian and Ukrainian research.

    "...relatively rapid migration..." !!!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyar_tribes

    Around 830 AD,[8][9] when Álmos was about 10 years old, the seven related tribes (Jenő, Kér, Keszi, Kürt-Gyarmat, Megyer (hu), Nyék and Tarján)[10] formed a confederation[8] in Etelköz,[9] called "Hétmagyar" ("Seven Magyars"). Their leaders, the Seven chieftains of the Magyars, besides Álmos, included Előd, Ond, Kond, Tas, Huba and Töhötöm, who took a blood oath, swearing eternal loyalty to Álmos.[11] Presumably, the Magyar tribes consisted of 108 clans.[12]

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  9. #17
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    It is clear that Turkey Turks are genetically closer to the Mediterranean population Despite their Ur-Altai language as well as today's Hungarians more to the Central European population is still some regions in Hungary or Turkey have a signal from the steppe. For example, in Turkey where the Caravansary is (Selchjuk time), the Turkish population has a Central Asian component. Even with the present day Hungarians, which in the meantime have grown up mainly in Slavs and partly also in Germanic and pre - Slavic populations, there are regions with an Eastern steppe component (Ural region)
    Alain Dad
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    H76 czech Republic W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-sarmatian.

  10. #18
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    Here is how my boyfriend is modeled on nMonte:

    Austria_Tyrol 35.30
    Romania_SW 30.75
    Lithuanian 20.45
    North_Dagestan 5.85
    Finnish_East 4.05
    Karelian_Tver 2.15

    GR_Istanbul 0.95
    GR_Cyclades 0.25
    Sweden 0.10
    GR_Thrace 0.05
    IT_Tuscany 0.05

    It is not like modern Hungarians have zero recent steppe component. His Finnish and Dagestan admixture certanly came with migrating Magyar tribes, because it is not present in other Central Europeans.
    Last edited by Feiichy; 10-05-2018 at 06:57 PM.

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    My modern nMonte

    PL_Wielkopolska 58.43
    Dutch South 10.20
    SP_La Roja 8.65 I think this is Celtic componete
    PL_Upper Silesian 5.95. Slavic-Germanic Mix
    Chuvash Volga-Bulgars 4.20 Steppe componete
    Romania Central 3.95
    FR_Bretagne 2.40
    Finish_SW 1.95 Uralic
    Alain Dad
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    H76 czech Republic W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-sarmatian.

  13. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feiichy View Post
    Here is how my boyfriend is modeled on nMonte:

    Austria_Tyrol 35.30
    Romania_SW 30.75
    Lithuanian 20.45
    North_Dagestan 5.85
    Finnish_East 4.05
    Karelian_Tver 2.15

    GR_Istanbul 0.95
    GR_Cyclades 0.25
    Sweden 0.10
    GR_Thrace 0.05
    IT_Tuscany 0.05

    It is not like modern Hungarians have zero recent steppe component. His Finnish and Dagestan admixture certanly came with migrating Magyar tribes, because it is not present in other Central Europeans.
    North Dagestan can also be more of a Neolithic Caucasian component
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-sarmatian.

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