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Thread: Khas Paharis?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    The interesting thing is the z consonant is retained in Mittani as well in all Dardic languages but vanishes in Vedic Sanskrit, I wonder what drove that change.
    Wikipedia says that Latin also underwent z to g by 5th century BCE, but re-adopted by 1st BCE.

    ... Because the sound /z/ in Latin changed to /r/ by rhotacism in the fifth century BC, z was dropped and its place given to the new letter g. In the 1st century BC, z was reintroduced at the end of the Latin alphabet to represent the sound of the Greek zeta /dz/, as the letter y was introduced to represent the sound of the Greek upsilon /y/.[5]

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  3. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Wikipedia says that Latin also underwent z to g by 5th century BCE, but re-adopted by 1st BCE.

    ... Because the sound /z/ in Latin changed to /r/ by rhotacism in the fifth century BC, z was dropped and its place given to the new letter g. In the 1st century BC, z was reintroduced at the end of the Latin alphabet to represent the sound of the Greek zeta /dz/, as the letter y was introduced to represent the sound of the Greek upsilon /y/.[5]
    Interesting , you do see a resurgence of the z consonant with modern Urdu/Hindustani speakers but with other Indo Aryan language speakers to my ear they almost always truncate z to j in particular those from rural backgrounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Interesting , you do see a resurgence of the z consonant with modern Urdu/Hindustani speakers but with other Indo Aryan language speakers to my ear they almost always truncate z to j in particular those from rural backgrounds.
    If you notice Indian Punjabis speaking punjabi, they use J instead of Z, while Pak Punjabis (especially urban urdu speaking ones) tend to lean on Z instead of J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    If you notice Indian Punjabis speaking punjabi, they use J instead of Z, while Pak Punjabis (especially urban urdu speaking ones) tend to lean on Z instead of J.
    Yeah they do, ditto the urban bourgeoisie Indian Punjabis also seem to use a more creole type language which is like a mix of Urdu,Punjabi and English but they do pronounce their z's right. Though you are right masses don't , ie the kind of dialects you would hear in Brampton. So words like these are transformed.

    Zendagi --Jindagi
    Zenan- Janani
    Zeera -Jeera
    Sabzi- Sabji
    Peyaz- Piyaj
    Tarboz- Tarbuja

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Yeah they do, ditto the urban bourgeoisie Indian Punjabis also seem to use a more creole type language which is like a mix of Urdu,Punjabi and English but they do pronounce their z's right. Though you are right masses don't , ie the kind of dialects you would hear in Brampton. So words like these are transformed.

    Zendagi --Jindagi
    Zenan- Janani
    Zeera -Jeera
    Sabzi- Sabji
    Peyaz- Piyaj
    Tarboz- Tarbuja
    A trait of Prakrit based languages?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    A trait of Prakrit based languages?
    I would think so, it carried off from Vedic Sanskrit. Though even within the Vedic Sanskrit derived branches there is a divergence , which has been mentioned in this thread, V/W is truncated to B, NW Indo Aryan retains B/V, Eastern Indo Aryan languages truncate it to B, Sh to Sa, then there are vowel shifts, A to O in some of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Yeah they do, ditto the urban bourgeoisie Indian Punjabis also seem to use a more creole type language which is like a mix of Urdu,Punjabi and English but they do pronounce their z's right. Though you are right masses don't , ie the kind of dialects you would hear in Brampton. So words like these are transformed.

    Zendagi --Jindagi
    Zenan- Janani
    Zeera -Jeera
    Sabzi- Sabji
    Peyaz- Piyaj
    Tarboz- Tarbuja

    My family and the more educated Punjabis use mostly the z forms of these words. Using j is considered uncouth in some circles. For Hindi only rural communities use j, also Indian Punjabis use a mix of J and Z depending on the family.

    Zendagi --Jindagi
    Zenan- Janani - We use the J form
    Zeera -Jeera
    Sabzi- Sabji
    Peyaz- Piyaj
    Tarboz- Tarbuja

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    Some of these changes may be a representation of cryptic linguistic influence via the Iranian languages (likely Old and Middle Persian are contenders, alongside proto-Pashto and whatever language the Kushans spoke) on Classical era Indo-Aryan dialects.

    This suggestion isn't an outlandish one - Lubotsky's identified several consonant changes within Old Persian itself which don't match the reconstructed proto-W. Iranic terms and are thought to be evidence of minor E. Iranic influence (be it Scythian->Median or via Avestan).

    We'd have a better grasp of what the possibilities are if any linguists have looked into the matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    My family and the more educated Punjabis use mostly the z forms of these words. Using j is considered uncouth in some circles. For Hindi only rural communities use j, also Indian Punjabis use a mix of J and Z depending on the family.

    Zendagi --Jindagi
    Zenan- Janani - We use the J form
    Zeera -Jeera
    Sabzi- Sabji
    Peyaz- Piyaj
    Tarboz- Tarbuja
    Just guessing here, but I wonder if that is due to English's "Z" pronounciation rather than Urdu's historic influence. More educated folks would have been taught to pronounce "Z" properly, especially the educated seem to be from British-era missionary schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    I would think so, it carried off from Vedic Sanskrit. Though even within the Vedic Sanskrit derived branches there is a divergence , which has been mentioned in this thread, V/W is truncated to B, NW Indo Aryan retains B/V, Eastern Indo Aryan languages truncate it to B, Sh to Sa, then there are vowel shifts, A to O in some of them.
    Being a native Nepali speaker, we have all 4. J instead of Z in all instances, B instead of V in most, Sa instead of Sh and O instead of A in many instances. Even to this day, I have hard time pronouncing "Sh". It is just S.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Just guessing here, but I wonder if that is due to English's "Z" pronounciation rather than Urdu's historic influence. More educated folks would have been taught to pronounce "Z" properly, especially the educated seem to be from British-era missionary schools.



    Being a native Nepali speaker, we have all 4. J instead of Z in all instances, B instead of V in most, Sa instead of Sh and O instead of A in many instances. Even to this day, I have hard time pronouncing "Sh". It is just S.
    I think it comes from the Urdu, Persian, Old Indo-Iranian-Aryan words. Some of these had commonality, and I think with the Lodhis and Mughals these words might have gone back to their old forms J-->Z. Maybe some NW-N Indian and Pakistani Pakrits never fully lost the Z, whereas Bihar, Eastern UP and Nepal lost them completely. I see these folks with the most trouble with Z sound.

    Many Northern Indians and Pakistanis who can't write or speak English properly(or none at all) can easily do the 'Z' sounds. My grandparents weren't very good at English (being their 4th language) and also mostly said 'Z' without trouble.

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