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Thread: Khas Paharis?

  1. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by pnb123 View Post
    It's near Srinagar (Garhwal) ?
    I have been there on the way to Rudraparyag lmao.

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  3. #462
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    Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find mine yet. It looks like the name of village got changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    Newar muslim from antiquity? That's odd and absolutely false info. Most muslims from Kathmandu are kashmiri in origin who make beads necklace ( worn by married pahari Nepali women) called 'pote' and have carpet business. They are concentrated in Indrachowk/Ason area of kathmandu. Other than that, there are muslims from Lucknow who migrated there, then there are Tibetan muslims and you will find central Asian muslims here and there who mostly work within the developmental sectors. Away from Kathmandu, Nepali muslims can be found in Terai region.
    Not antiquity, but late middle ages.

    I found a book on Muslims in Nepal titled, Islamic Revival in Nepal: Religion and a new Nation. The book mentions various ethnicities of Muslims in the country, and there are Newari ones.



    The information though, I have read long before when I was going through the history of the Bengal Sultanate. Btw, you also forgot to mention Tibetan Muslims in Nepal, who are Tibetan/Kashmiri mixed ethnically, sort of like the Balti people who are a Dard/Tibetan mixture.
    Last edited by Kulin; 01-22-2018 at 09:55 PM.

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  6. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Not antiquity, but late middle ages.

    I found a book on Muslims in Nepal titled, Islamic Revival in Nepal: Religion and a new Nation. The book mentions various ethnicities of Muslims in the country, and there are Newari ones.



    The information though, I have read long before when I was going through the history of the Bengal Sultanate. Btw, you also forgot to mention Tibetan Muslims in Nepal, who are Tibetan/Kashmiri mixed ethnically, sort of like the Balti people who are a Dard/Tibetan mixture.
    Interesting. Kathmandu was a trading hub and chances are the Newari Muslims were descendents of traders and locals, rather than the leftover invading Sultanate army that settled in. Its always anthropologically sexy to think about invading army taking over local wives, but the reality is a bit less dramatic, imo.

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  8. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Interesting. Kathmandu was a trading hub and chances are the Newari Muslims were descendents of traders and locals, rather than the leftover invading Sultanate army that settled in. Its always anthropologically sexy to think about invading army taking over local wives, but the reality is a bit less dramatic, imo.
    I don't think Nepal was ever invaded in a massive scale. I can only think of Gurkhas (but they were kind of like locals). In previous times, only Kathmandu valley and surrounding areas were called Nepal. Newari is still called Nepal Bhasha. Nepali should technically be named Khas-Kura or Khas Bhasha. To the East of Kathmandu existed a kingdom of Kiratis (Rais and Subbas), to the South were the Maithili people, Tamangs lived to the North, Magars lived to the immediate West, & Khasas inhabited Far Western Hills of Nepal. Here's the map:


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  10. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by pnb123 View Post
    I don't think Nepal was ever invaded in a massive scale. I can only think of Gurkhas (but they were kind of like locals). In previous times, only Kathmandu valley and surrounding areas were called Nepal. Newari is still called Nepal Bhasha. Nepali should technically be named Khas-Kura or Khas Bhasha. To the East of Kathmandu existed a kingdom of Kiratis (Rais and Subbas), to the South were the Maithili people, Tamangs lived to the North, Magars lived to the immediate West, & Khasas inhabited Far Western Hills of Nepal. Here's the map:

    It is interesting that pretty much all of those "States" have been Khas-ized, except for the Madhesh. There are exceptions like Chitwan, Biratnagar, Lumbini, etc that have substantial Khas Paharis. My wife has relatives in and around Janakpur that have basically fled. Very high anti-pahari sentiments around the madeshes there. And, according to them, it is purely racial/ethnic. They all speak Maithili fluently, so much that they have accent speaking Nepali lol. So, it can't be language.

    Btw, the only aDNA so far from Southern Asia was from a 1100BC male found in Northern "Tamuwan". Haplogroup O-M117 for YDNA and M9a1a1c for MtDNA.

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  12. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Not antiquity, but late middle ages.

    I found a book on Muslims in Nepal titled, Islamic Revival in Nepal: Religion and a new Nation. The book mentions various ethnicities of Muslims in the country, and there are Newari ones.



    The information though, I have read long before when I was going through the history of the Bengal Sultanate. Btw, you also forgot to mention Tibetan Muslims in Nepal, who are Tibetan/Kashmiri mixed ethnically, sort of like the Balti people who are a Dard/Tibetan mixture.
    That quote... Looks interesting and read worthy. Online link?

    I did mention Tibetan muslims and they don't call themselves Tibetan/Kashmiri. I have seen admix of few Tibetan muslims from NYC originally from Kathmandu, but none had any kashmiri indicating admixture but rather had local pop admix.They run hotels and other businesses in Thamel, Kathmandu and are concentrated there. Kashmiri muslims 'proper' on the other hand in Kathmandu do not mix with Tibetan muslims or anyone else in a ritualistic way but ofc you will find families since muslims are minority in Nepal and people elope. But they sure did migrate around the same time in Kathmandu, via the way of Kodari Khasa bazzar(trade gateway between Tibet/China and Nepal).
    Those two groups actually clash in Kathmandu.
    The mosque in Darbar Marg Kathmandu is Kashmiri is origin.

    I do not buy the Newari muslim stuff at all. That sounds tending to trace unavailable exoticness like how they said some Royals from there were from central Asia but their admix shows indic like elements at most- Chettris level

    Another thing about Newars of Nepal is that, many perhaps most newars from outside of Kathmandu, Lalitpur and Bhaktapur do not speak Nepal Bhasa/newari and are Pahari like culturally though Paharis don't mix with them. Maybe those newars have some muslim groups in them and they have migrated to Kathmandu, I doubt the newari muslim claim regardless, hopefully, we will have an admix of a newari muslim(not a recent convert). For most Nepalese, working up a property in Kathmandu is analogous to American dream. I can't really wrap my head around Newar muslims from Kathmandu/Lalitpur/Bhaktapur. The Newars are mostly Buddhists with Hindu elements.

    They have some hierarchy as far as I can remember, I ofc don't know everything though

    Rajupadhya - Priest Bhramins class of Newars - Some have Pahari admix elements in them are hindus
    Terai newars- hindus
    Shrestha- Warrior like clan -- primarily Hindus - Some have Pahari admix elements in them are hindus

    Bajracharya/Shakya...-Priest class of the Buddhist hindu mix also called Guvaju/Vaidya
    Tuladhar,Tamrakar...... -- Merchant class --- Buddhist Hindu

    Maharjan -Farmers

    Chitrakar ....... - painters/sculpturs groups -- Buddhist Hindus

    Khadgi- Butcher
    Podya- Fishermen
    Chama- sweepers

    I have missed many definitely but they are basically the Newars from the three cities and they don't marry outside their groups... at least historically.

    I found this on youtube video, misleading though
    Last edited by surbakhunWeesste; 01-23-2018 at 03:55 AM.

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  14. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    It is interesting that pretty much all of those "States" have been Khas-ized, except for the Madhesh. There are exceptions like Chitwan, Biratnagar, Lumbini, etc that have substantial Khas Paharis. My wife has relatives in and around Janakpur that have basically fled. Very high anti-pahari sentiments around the madeshes there. And, according to them, it is purely racial/ethnic. They all speak Maithili fluently, so much that they have accent speaking Nepali lol. So, it can't be language.

    Btw, the only aDNA so far from Southern Asia was from a 1100BC male found in Northern "Tamuwan". Haplogroup O-M117 for YDNA and M9a1a1c for MtDNA.
    Interesting, must be a Newar ancestor

    Haplogroup O2a2b1a1-M117 (also defined by the phylogenetically equivalent mutation Page23) is a subclade of O2a2b1-M134 (and also a subclade of haplogroup O2-M122) that occurs frequently in China and in neighboring countries like Nepal, Bhutan, and Korea, especially among Sino-Tibetan language speaking people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    It is interesting that pretty much all of those "States" have been Khas-ized, except for the Madhesh. There are exceptions like Chitwan, Biratnagar, Lumbini, etc that have substantial Khas Paharis. My wife has relatives in and around Janakpur that have basically fled. Very high anti-pahari sentiments around the madeshes there. And, according to them, it is purely racial/ethnic. They all speak Maithili fluently, so much that they have accent speaking Nepali lol. So, it can't be language.

    Btw, the only aDNA so far from Southern Asia was from a 1100BC male found in Northern "Tamuwan". Haplogroup O-M117 for YDNA and M9a1a1c for MtDNA.
    Are those samples from ancient Himalayan cave people ? I don't think researchers are that much interested in finding out more about Khasas. The samples could be very well preserved in Khasan, as relatively cool temperature of mountains usually allow for preservation of DNA. That could literally shed some more light about our ancestors. I've also heard about the Roopkund lake skeletons in Uttarakhand. I wonder whether the samples taken from there were related to other people living near that area or not.

  17. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Interesting, must be a Newar ancestor

    Haplogroup O2a2b1a1-M117 (also defined by the phylogenetically equivalent mutation Page23) is a subclade of O2a2b1-M134 (and also a subclade of haplogroup O2-M122) that occurs frequently in China and in neighboring countries like Nepal, Bhutan, and Korea, especially among Sino-Tibetan language speaking people.
    Could even be more direct ancestors of other less admixed SinoTibetans like Tamangs, Magars, Limbus, etc. If those less admixed SinoTibetans are recent(like Sherpas are recent in that region apparently), then the 1100BC sample could be Newari ancestor. I have not spent any time on SinoTibetans, although there are a couple of recent papers on them. I am mostly just trying to understand the "proper" South Asian populations like IA, Dravidian, AA, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by pnb123 View Post
    Are those samples from ancient Himalayan cave people ? I don't think researchers are that much interested in finding out more about Khasas. The samples could be very well preserved in Khasan, as relatively cool temperature of mountains usually allow for preservation of DNA. That could literally shed some more light about our ancestors. I've also heard about the Roopkund lake skeletons in Uttarakhand. I wonder whether the samples taken from there were related to other people living near that area or not.
    I would not put too much hope around the Roopkund skeletons. They appear to be clearly some sort of pilgrims on their Himalayan trip with their local SinoTibetan guides. Why would Khas need guides? Unless, of course, we're from the plains around 600CE. I don't buy it based on just gut reaction, but their aDNA should be interesting. Any insights from it beside they were "West Asian"?

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