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Thread: Khas Paharis?

  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heir of Gandhara View Post
    Muzaffarabad, Neelum and probably parts of Bagh districts are the only places in Pakistan that can qualify as proper Kashmiri. All other districts are basically Jammu and by extension Pahari.

    Also, people from AJK and Murree Hills do not speak Pothwari, but rather Pahari. In Jhelum and Rawalpindi, the word Pahari is reserved for the peoples of those areas and their language. Pothwari itself has variations and loses its Pahari influences in favor of Hindko's as you move from east to west within the region.
    The term Pahari is used, but it is a misnomer. 'Pahar' literally means "mountain" so they would call themselves Pahari since they live in highlands.

    Linguistically, they don't belong to the same Pahari branch spoken in India and Nepal. Pahari can be divided into three categories: Western (Himachili), Central (Uttarakhandi), and Eastern (Nepali). This Pahari is not spoken in Pakistan regardless of what the speakers there may call it. The speakers of the Newari language in Nepal also refer to their language as 'Pahari' despite it being a Sino-Tibetan language and completely unrelated to the language spoken by Khas people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pahari_languages

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  3. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    The term Pahari is used, but it is a misnomer. 'Pahar' literally means "mountain" so they would call themselves Pahari since they live in highlands.

    Linguistically, they don't belong to the same Pahari branch spoken in India and Nepal. Pahari can be divided into three categories: Western (Himachili), Central (Uttarakhandi), and Eastern (Nepali). This Pahari is not spoken in Pakistan regardless of what the speakers there may call it. The speakers of the Newari language in Nepal also refer to their language as 'Pahari' despite it being a Sino-Tibetan language and completely unrelated to the language spoken by Khas people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pahari_languages
    You're right, but Western Pahari is spoken in parts of Punjab and AJK. Western Pahari languages like Dogri (spoken in Jammu and Himachal), Kangri (spoken in Himachal) are more similar to Punjabi due to proximity than they are to fellow Pahari languages east of them. Although, they developed from a singular Pahari branch, just like Eastern Hindi dialects like Bhojpuri developed from Pali, the former is closer to Punjabi rather than Nepali, like how the latter is closer to Hindi/Urdu than Bengali. Indo-Aryan languages are also complex in the way that most form some dialect continuum, and sometimes it gets hard to tell if a language is a singular dialect or a language in itself, since it displays so much variation and diversity within a small geographic area.
    Last edited by Kulin; 01-30-2018 at 04:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    You're right, but Western Pahari is spoken in parts of Punjab and AJK. Western Pahari languages like Dogri (spoken in Jammu and Himachal), Kangri (spoken in Himachal) are more similar to Punjabi due to proximity than they are to fellow Pahari languages east of them. Although, they developed from a singular Pahari branch, just like Eastern Hindi dialects like Bhojpuri developed from Pali, the former is closer to Punjabi rather than Nepali, like how the latter is closer to Hindi/Urdu than Bengali. Indo-Aryan languages are also complex in the way that most form some dialect continuum, and sometimes it gets hard to tell if a language is a singular dialect or a language in itself, since it displays so much variation and diversity within a small geographic area.
    You're right, Dogri actually is spoken in AJK. Completely forgot about that. In that case, some Pahari is spoken in AJK and I take back what I said earlier.

    Does anyone here know if Dogri is ever referred to specifically by the name 'Dogri' in Pakistan?

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    Pakistani gazal singer Ghulam Ali sang a very popular Nepali song in gazal style.



    ---

    Gazal influenced a lot of singers... Narayan Gopal Shrestha was the most respected Nepali singer of the 20th century and almost exclusively sang gazal.



    ---

    Here is a mid-20th century folk song. The singer is blind and the band (Kutumba) always play using traditional instruments like sarangi, madal, bansuri, murali etc


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    You're right, Dogri actually is spoken in AJK. Completely forgot about that. In that case, some Pahari is spoken in AJK and I take back what I said earlier.

    Does anyone here know if Dogri is ever referred to specifically by the name 'Dogri' in Pakistan?
    From generally what I know, Dogri is referred to as "Pahari Punjabi" by Punjabis (from both Pakistan/India). Some Dogri speakers themselves (atleast ones I've met from Jammu), consider themselves Punjabi and their language Punjabi. Of course, there might be a recent sense of nationhood due to the Jammu & Kashmir kingdom, ruled by Dogra Rajput Kings, but historically a Dogra identity hasn't really existed as a separate one from Punjabi as a whole. Today, Dogri has 8th Schedule Language status in India, making it one of the official languages of the country, which is a pretty big deal since most languages are (wrongly) classified as Hindi dialects and it thus solidifies Dogri as a separate language from Punjabi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    The term Pahari is used, but it is a misnomer. 'Pahar' literally means "mountain" so they would call themselves Pahari since they live in highlands.

    Linguistically, they don't belong to the same Pahari branch spoken in India and Nepal. Pahari can be divided into three categories: Western (Himachili), Central (Uttarakhandi), and Eastern (Nepali). This Pahari is not spoken in Pakistan regardless of what the speakers there may call it. The speakers of the Newari language in Nepal also refer to their language as 'Pahari' despite it being a Sino-Tibetan language and completely unrelated to the language spoken by Khas people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pahari_languages
    pahad(r) means hill bachem, parvat/himal means mountain. Newars don’t like the pahari tag, their language is Sino-Tibetan in all means, pahari from kathmandu has buncha loanwords from newari. Newars calls pahar people “barnu/Barmu” as as in bhramins. I don’t really know the exact word, another word is parvate: of the hills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toor View Post
    Madhesi is a term used for the inhabitants of Nepal's southern strip. Many groups live there but they are generalised as "Madhesis".


    Take what these Nepalis are saying with a grain of salt since they're desperate to spread propaganda. They’re cherry picking pictures of Khas Bahuns with caucasoid features even though they’re heavily Tibeto-Burman in appearance.

    not you speaking about our ethnicity. chettris are very TB in appearance. But bahuns are strictly endogamous--any bahun who has a child with a TB becomes a chettri.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roasti View Post
    not you speaking about our ethnicity. chettris are very TB in appearance. But bahuns are strictly endogamous--any bahun who has a child with a TB becomes a chettri.
    You shouldn't be replying to such troll post, you'll find such anti- Pahadi troll posts in every online platforms like quora, reddit and other anthro forums; someone's working hard lol. His statement's laughable; I've seen way more weird statements than that. Phenotypic discussion is not allowed in this forum, though I disagree with what you give a misleading and generalized statement "Chhetris are very TB in appearance". There's a diversity among Chhetris but on average it's clearly leaning towards South Asia. And there are certain communities who pose and claim themselves as Chhetri such as the Matwali Khas and Aidis-Bhotiyas who escaped from Tibet.

    Bahuns marrying Mongoloids/Dalits were grouped either to Jaishi Bahun sub-caste or the respective caste of the mother of such child. Hence, there are Mongoloids and Dalits with Bahun surnames like Baral, Lamichhane, etc.

    Only Bahuns who married a Chhetri female became Chhetris and they were called "Khatri". Khatris carried the surname, gotra, deities & culture of their Bahun father. These phenomenon was active before the Rana regime; these kind of things doesn't work in modern times.

    Chhetris didn't lose their caste by marrying Mongoloids, hence is their admixture; it's not much of a consequence from Bahuns and Khatris. Chhetris have some differences in their South Asian admixture than Bahuns. Chhetris are more IVC (and probably a bit more BMAC shifted) while Bahuns are more Steppe shifted.

    Target: Bahun_Average
    Distance: 1.9682% / 0.01968244
    54.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
    25.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    11.8 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA
    8.0 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP

    Average Chhetri would score like Ba15 +4-5% East Asian.

    Target: Ba15
    Distance: 2.4130% / 0.02413019
    47.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
    23.8 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
    18.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    10.6 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA
    Last edited by kaazi; 01-12-2021 at 10:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    pahad(r) means hill bachem, parvat/himal means mountain. Newars don’t like the pahari tag, their language is Sino-Tibetan in all means, pahari from kathmandu has buncha loanwords from newari. Newars calls pahar people “barnu/Barmu” as as in bhramins. I don’t really know the exact word, another word is parvate: of the hills.
    Those Newars are spelled more as Pahari (Pa-ha-ri) not as Paa-haa-di or Pa-haa-di (Pahāṛī, पहाडी). They call Barmu only for Bahun/Brahmins, not for other non-Brahmin Khas. They use the word "Khey or Khaya" for the Khas folks as a whole or use the word "Parvatya" (of the hills). Pahadi, Parvatya are sometimes misunderstood and has some vagueness attached it over who's a Pahadi/ Parvatya.
    Last edited by kaazi; 01-12-2021 at 05:53 AM.

  16. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaazi View Post
    You shouldn't be replying to such troll post, you'll find such anti- Pahadi troll posts in every online platforms like quora, reddit and other anthro forums; someone's working hard lol. His statement's laughable; I've seen way more weird statements than that. Phenotypic discussion is not allowed in this forum, though I disagree with what you give a generalized statement about "Chhetris are very TB in appearance". There's a diversity among Chhetris but on average it's clearly leaning towards South Asia. And there are certain communities who pose and claim themselves as Chhetri such as the Matwali Khas and Aidis-Bhotiyas who escaped from Tibet.

    Bahuns marrying Mongoloids/Dalits were grouped either to Jaishi Bahun sub-caste or the respective caste of the mother of such child. Hence, there are Mongoloids and Dalits with Bahun surnames like Baral, Lamichhane, etc.

    Only Bahuns who married a Chhetri female became Chhetris and they were called "Khatri". Khatris carried the surname, gotra, deities & culture of their Bahun father. These phenomenon was active before the Rana regime; these kind of things doesn't work in modern times.

    Chhetris didn't lose their caste by marrying Mongoloids, hence is their admixture; it's not much of a consequence from Bahuns and Khatris. Chhetris have some differences in their South Asian admixture than Bahuns. Chhetris are more IVC (and probably a bit more BMAC shifted) while Bahuns are more Steppe shifted.

    Target: Bahun_Average
    Distance: 1.9682% / 0.01968244
    54.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
    25.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    11.8 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA
    8.0 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP

    Ba15 has more Chhetri like South Asian admixture than others.

    Target: Ba15
    Distance: 2.4130% / 0.02413019
    47.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
    23.8 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
    18.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    10.6 UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA
    Which Bahuns are these, the average is more like Ba15, is this a different avg??

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