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Thread: Interpreting My Ancestry - South Asian but mystery forbear?

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    Interpreting My Ancestry - South Asian but mystery forbear?

    Hi guys,

    Hope this finds you well.

    I recently had my DNA tested with 23andme and had a few follow-up question about how to interpret my raw genetic data, which I was hoping you might be able to help me with. I did some wider research, but being quite unfamiliar with how this all this works, I managed to thoroughly confuse myself! But I was advised on a 23andme thread to join Anthrogenica and am really happy to be part of the Forum now.

    Essentially, I was hoping to ask your thoughts on my ancestry. By way of background, I am British Pakistani (all four grandparents are from Pakistani Punjab, AJK or KPK). However, the real reason I wanted to get tested in the first place is down to an interesting family story I wanted to test the truth of. My paternal grandad has always maintained that his (paternal) great grandfather - a Muslim scholar - migrated to Lahore when the city was under Sikh rule, around about the year 1800 (we think). The family lore says he was invited by a deposed Mughal who gave him a Mosque in the Old City and set him up as the Imam there. Now, the family elders aren't quite sure where he migrated from, but the general consensus is the Middle East region - and one Uncle insists it was 'Khorasan' which I've discovered is an old term for Iran/Afghanistan/Central Asia. It's an interesting story which I thought I could test by DNA-testing (now I know it isn't quite so simple lol) - so I ordered myself 23andme.

    The results were interesting. My Y-DNA is J2* or J-M172. On reading this, I thought it immediately corroborated the family story, but I have since discovered that the incidence of J2 is actually quite high in Punjab (after R1a). My relative finder shows that I have cousins who are Punjabi, Pakhtun, 4 are Afghan and remainder are European or European-origin Americans. In terms of my autosomal DNA, I am: 95.8% South Asian, 1.9% European, 1% Middle Eastern, 0.2% Subsaharan African, 0.1% Oceanian and 0.1% Native American - the remainder is unassigned. I have run some subsequent tests: HarrapaWorld on Gedmatch has me down as 31.84% South Indian, 38.81% Baloch, 14.01% Caucasian, 8.96% NE Euro, 0.94% Siberian, 1.08 NE Asian, 0.93% Papuan, 0.64% American, 0.33% Beringian, 1.43% SW Asian, 0.21 San and 0.24% East African (0% Med, Pygmy and West African); and DNAland says I am 55% Central Asian (45% Indus Valley, 7.2% Indo-Iranian, 3.3% Kalash), 35% South Asian (24% Gujurati, 11% Dravidian), 3.8% Central IndoEuropean, 1.8% Finnish, 1.3% Amiguous Southwestern European and 1% Native Oceanian.

    Now, from what I have read, my Harrappa results are fairly normal for a Punjabi (I think). So really, what I am still interested to find out whether I did indeed have a mystery ancestor who migrated to the subcontinent - or whether it's just family lore that's come about over the generations. I have been told that my Caucasian on Harrappa is slightly elevated for a Punjabi, and that the 3.8% Central Indoeuropean is also not typical for a Pakistani Punjabi - but I'm not sure whether there is any data to support this or not.

    So, really, what I'd like to ask your thoughts on is whether, realistically, looking at my data, I could have had a recent Iranian/Afghan/Central Asian ancestor along the paternal line? Also, does sharing 0.23% DNA (17CM) with a 23andme 'cousin' who is fully European (100% autosomal European) indicate that I could have recent European ancestry?

    I would be really grateful if someone with more knowledge of DNA testing/South Asian genetics in particular could help clarify for me.

    Have a lovely day!

    Ahmed

    PS. I'm not sure if this is relevant, but my family caste is Rajput - although, again, the family elders on Dad's side say that we acquired Rajput identity during British times because we didn't have a traditional South Asian caste as such - but one was required to complete census data and so, apparently, we were randomly/accidentally allocated it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Ali View Post
    Hi guys,

    Hope this finds you well.

    I recently had my DNA tested with 23andme and had a few follow-up question about how to interpret my raw genetic data, which I was hoping you might be able to help me with. I did some wider research, but being quite unfamiliar with how this all this works, I managed to thoroughly confuse myself! But I was advised on a 23andme thread to join Anthrogenica and am really happy to be part of the Forum now.

    Essentially, I was hoping to ask your thoughts on my ancestry. By way of background, I am British Pakistani (all four grandparents are from Pakistani Punjab, AJK or KPK). However, the real reason I wanted to get tested in the first place is down to an interesting family story I wanted to test the truth of. My paternal grandad has always maintained that his (paternal) great grandfather - a Muslim scholar - migrated to Lahore when the city was under Sikh rule, around about the year 1800 (we think). The family lore says he was invited by a deposed Mughal who gave him a Mosque in the Old City and set him up as the Imam there. Now, the family elders aren't quite sure where he migrated from, but the general consensus is the Middle East region - and one Uncle insists it was 'Khorasan' which I've discovered is an old term for Iran/Afghanistan/Central Asia. It's an interesting story which I thought I could test by DNA-testing (now I know it isn't quite so simple lol) - so I ordered myself 23andme.

    The results were interesting. My Y-DNA is J2* or J-M172. On reading this, I thought it immediately corroborated the family story, but I have since discovered that the incidence of J2 is actually quite high in Punjab (after R1a). My relative finder shows that I have cousins who are Punjabi, Pakhtun, 4 are Afghan and remainder are European or European-origin Americans. In terms of my autosomal DNA, I am: 95.8% South Asian, 1.9% European, 1% Middle Eastern, 0.2% Subsaharan African, 0.1% Oceanian and 0.1% Native American - the remainder is unassigned. I have run some subsequent tests: HarrapaWorld on Gedmatch has me down as 31.84% South Indian, 38.81% Baloch, 14.01% Caucasian, 8.96% NE Euro, 0.94% Siberian, 1.08 NE Asian, 0.93% Papuan, 0.64% American, 0.33% Beringian, 1.43% SW Asian, 0.21 San and 0.24% East African (0% Med, Pygmy and West African); and DNAland says I am 55% Central Asian (45% Indus Valley, 7.2% Indo-Iranian, 3.3% Kalash), 35% South Asian (24% Gujurati, 11% Dravidian), 3.8% Central IndoEuropean, 1.8% Finnish, 1.3% Amiguous Southwestern European and 1% Native Oceanian.

    Now, from what I have read, my Harrappa results are fairly normal for a Punjabi (I think). So really, what I am still interested to find out whether I did indeed have a mystery ancestor who migrated to the subcontinent - or whether it's just family lore that's come about over the generations. I have been told that my Caucasian on Harrappa is slightly elevated for a Punjabi, and that the 3.8% Central Indoeuropean is also not typical for a Pakistani Punjabi - but I'm not sure whether there is any data to support this or not.

    So, really, what I'd like to ask your thoughts on is whether, realistically, looking at my data, I could have had a recent Iranian/Afghan/Central Asian ancestor along the paternal line? Also, does sharing 0.23% DNA (17CM) with a 23andme 'cousin' who is fully European (100% autosomal European) indicate that I could have recent European ancestry?

    I would be really grateful if someone with more knowledge of DNA testing/South Asian genetics in particular could help clarify for me.

    Have a lovely day!

    Ahmed

    PS. I'm not sure if this is relevant, but my family caste is Rajput - although, again, the family elders on Dad's side say that we acquired Rajput identity during British times because we didn't have a traditional South Asian caste as such - but one was required to complete census data and so, apparently, we were randomly/accidentally allocated it.
    Your scores resemble Kashmiri Jatts and some Punjabi Khatris/Kamboj, higher Caucasian and lower euro. There are lots of lores in Muslim families of South asia which are usually not true, and good amount of SA muslims were local converts.

    Your results are indeed different from punjabi rajputs because of higher caucasian, so they are more Khatri like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Ali View Post
    Hi guys,

    Hope this finds you well.

    I recently had my DNA tested with 23andme and had a few follow-up question about how to interpret my raw genetic data, which I was hoping you might be able to help me with. I did some wider research, but being quite unfamiliar with how this all this works, I managed to thoroughly confuse myself! But I was advised on a 23andme thread to join Anthrogenica and am really happy to be part of the Forum now.

    Essentially, I was hoping to ask your thoughts on my ancestry. By way of background, I am British Pakistani (all four grandparents are from Pakistani Punjab, AJK or KPK). However, the real reason I wanted to get tested in the first place is down to an interesting family story I wanted to test the truth of. My paternal grandad has always maintained that his (paternal) great grandfather - a Muslim scholar - migrated to Lahore when the city was under Sikh rule, around about the year 1800 (we think). The family lore says he was invited by a deposed Mughal who gave him a Mosque in the Old City and set him up as the Imam there. Now, the family elders aren't quite sure where he migrated from, but the general consensus is the Middle East region - and one Uncle insists it was 'Khorasan' which I've discovered is an old term for Iran/Afghanistan/Central Asia. It's an interesting story which I thought I could test by DNA-testing (now I know it isn't quite so simple lol) - so I ordered myself 23andme.

    The results were interesting. My Y-DNA is J2* or J-M172. On reading this, I thought it immediately corroborated the family story, but I have since discovered that the incidence of J2 is actually quite high in Punjab (after R1a). My relative finder shows that I have cousins who are Punjabi, Pakhtun, 4 are Afghan and remainder are European or European-origin Americans. In terms of my autosomal DNA, I am: 95.8% South Asian, 1.9% European, 1% Middle Eastern, 0.2% Subsaharan African, 0.1% Oceanian and 0.1% Native American - the remainder is unassigned. I have run some subsequent tests: HarrapaWorld on Gedmatch has me down as 31.84% South Indian, 38.81% Baloch, 14.01% Caucasian, 8.96% NE Euro, 0.94% Siberian, 1.08 NE Asian, 0.93% Papuan, 0.64% American, 0.33% Beringian, 1.43% SW Asian, 0.21 San and 0.24% East African (0% Med, Pygmy and West African); and DNAland says I am 55% Central Asian (45% Indus Valley, 7.2% Indo-Iranian, 3.3% Kalash), 35% South Asian (24% Gujurati, 11% Dravidian), 3.8% Central IndoEuropean, 1.8% Finnish, 1.3% Amiguous Southwestern European and 1% Native Oceanian.

    Now, from what I have read, my Harrappa results are fairly normal for a Punjabi (I think). So really, what I am still interested to find out whether I did indeed have a mystery ancestor who migrated to the subcontinent - or whether it's just family lore that's come about over the generations. I have been told that my Caucasian on Harrappa is slightly elevated for a Punjabi, and that the 3.8% Central Indoeuropean is also not typical for a Pakistani Punjabi - but I'm not sure whether there is any data to support this or not.

    So, really, what I'd like to ask your thoughts on is whether, realistically, looking at my data, I could have had a recent Iranian/Afghan/Central Asian ancestor along the paternal line? Also, does sharing 0.23% DNA (17CM) with a 23andme 'cousin' who is fully European (100% autosomal European) indicate that I could have recent European ancestry?

    I would be really grateful if someone with more knowledge of DNA testing/South Asian genetics in particular could help clarify for me.

    Have a lovely day!

    Ahmed

    PS. I'm not sure if this is relevant, but my family caste is Rajput - although, again, the family elders on Dad's side say that we acquired Rajput identity during British times because we didn't have a traditional South Asian caste as such - but one was required to complete census data and so, apparently, we were randomly/accidentally allocated it.
    What are your Oracle 4 results for Gedrosia K12 and Harappa?

    I second MonkeyDLuffy, your results are synonymous of Punjabis and Kashmiri Jatts.

    What is your MtDNA?
    One's homeland is not where you are born, but where all your attempts to escape, cease.

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    There is a significant west Eurasian ancestry in South Asia North West , so you never know it is local or from outside ancestor , but your caucasian do seem elevated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passion View Post
    There is a significant west Eurasian ancestry in South Asia North West , so you never know it is local or from outside ancestor , but your caucasian do seem elevated.
    There was a kashmiri Pandit (Kaul) who scored 18% Caucasian, so I think caucasian scores between 12-18% shouldn't raise eyebrows in Northern Punjab and kashmir. The kashmiri average caucasian on Harappa sheet is 14%. I always imagined Dardics to score more Caucasian, maybe during Buddhist period, dardics intermarried each other, but with introduction of Islam and Hinduism, the changes started to appear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    There was a kashmiri Pandit (Kaul) who scored 18% Caucasian, so I think caucasian scores between 12-18% shouldn't raise eyebrows in Northern Punjab and kashmir. The kashmiri average caucasian on Harappa sheet is 14%. I always imagined Dardics to score more Caucasian, maybe during Buddhist period, dardics intermarried each other, but with introduction of Islam and Hinduism, the changes started to appear.
    yeah I think Arain who are central Punjabi tribe also score high caucasian. So you are right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passion View Post
    yeah I think Arain who are central Punjabi tribe also score high caucasian. So you are right.
    Arain is an odd bunch, They score really high Baloch and caucasian but less euro, which kind of indicates a southern punjab/sindh kind of ancestry. But they were highly concentrated in East Punjab before partition, Especially Doaba and Majha regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Ali View Post
    Hi guys,
    HarrapaWorld on Gedmatch has me down as 31.84% South Indian, 38.81% Baloch, 14.01% Caucasian, 8.96% NE Euro, 0.94% Siberian, 1.08 NE Asian, 0.93% Papuan, 0.64% American, 0.33% Beringian, 1.43% SW Asian, 0.21 San and 0.24% East African (0% Med, Pygmy and West African);
    Hi Ahmed,

    Your harappaworld results are pretty similar to my Pakistani Punjabi friend - his dad is from azad kashmir (shaikh) and mum from jalandhar originally (arain):

    S-Indian 32.77
    Baloch 39.68
    Caucasian 13.35
    NE-Euro 7.61
    SE-Asian 0.96
    Siberian 0.64
    NE-Asian 1.20
    Papuan 0.39
    American 0.74
    Beringian 1.00
    Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian 1.68
    San -
    E-African -
    Pygmy -
    W-African -

    Similarish profile in terms of higher Caucasian and Baloch and Lower Euro - which as MonkeyDLuffy says isn't uncommon - and as half arain, he always scores more Baloch type than Euro compared to many Punjabis. Interestingly, his Arain background is also from Doaba region pre partition.

    His y-dna haplotype is also J2 - J-M172.
    Last edited by Reza; 11-18-2017 at 10:35 PM.

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    That's really interesting - thanks for the insight MonkeyDLuffy. Interestingly, nearly all of my South Asian 23andme cousins (the non-Muslim ones) seem to have very Punjabi Khatri sounding surnames so that would seem to make sense. Although I did have a thought: my Mom is half-Pathan so could that be what's behind the slightly higher caucasian?

    PS. Are Kashmiri Jatts different from Kashmiris per se ie. non-dardic? I'm interested because I have a lot of relatives who intermarried with Kashmiris but as far as I know I don't have any Kashmiri links as such (my maternal grandfather is from AJK but is quite sure he is a 'Bais Rajput' who I think are more closely related to Punajbi..)
    Last edited by Ahmed Ali; 11-19-2017 at 02:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    There was a kashmiri Pandit (Kaul) who scored 18% Caucasian, so I think caucasian scores between 12-18% shouldn't raise eyebrows in Northern Punjab and kashmir. The kashmiri average caucasian on Harappa sheet is 14%.
    There is a Punjabi Arrain scoring 18% Caucasian on HarappaWorld as well.

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 40.12
    2 S-Indian 26.63
    3 Caucasian 18.20
    4 NE-Euro 9.20
    5 American 2.49
    6 SW-Asian 2.05

    There was a Sindhi Lalwani (Hindu) who scored 18.13% Caucasian as well on this calculator.

     




    OP, testing your parents, especially your paternal side, might help you in finding out if their is any truth to your family lore. You could then compare their results with the Afghan Tajiks ("Khorasanis")

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