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Thread: The History of J2

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    The History of J2

    This is meant to look at the overall findings of J2 in ancient dna, since not many samples were found and hopefully some upcoming papers will find more samples. If I miss any please inform.

    I will split it for J2a and J2b

    The oldest J2a sample so far is from Mesolithic Iran along with the oldest J2b also being found in Early Neolithic Western Iran both being basal clades suggesting a birth from around there, this is exactly during the time of the Zarzian Culture, it is very likely that J1 and J2 were both present and expanded initially from this culture. There was extensive contacts between the Zarzian Culture and the Caucasus, possibly the Levant as well.

    J2a

    J2a-Z6049>SK1321 appears in Mesolithic Caucasus at Kotias Kide, being anywhere from 700-1000 years younger than the Mesolithic Iranian J2a.

    J2a-Z6049>Z6048 was found in Neolithic Farmers from the site of Barcin in Anatolia.

    J2a-Z6055 was found in Neolithic Farmers in Hungary, his autosomal was 95% Neolithic Farmer.

    J2a2-PF5008 was in Copper Age West Iran, is associated with Iran Chalcolithic.

    J2a-M319 was found in 2 Minoans

    J2a-L26 Basal was found in a Mycenaean from Troezon

    J2a-Z7671>Z30685 was found in the late Bronze Age Kyjatice Culture in Hungary (BR2), the line itself was probably entered Europe in the Early Bronze Age.

    J2a2-PF5008>PF4993 was found in Sary-Bel Kurgan (Russian Altai) during the Iron Age, most likely a Scythian, and this line was very likely picked up from Iran.

    J2a2-PF5008>PF4993 was also found again in Kytmanovo Altai in the early Medieval Age.

    There is also 2 J2a-M67's and a J2b? found in Merovingian samples unfortunately no further analysis was done.

    There is also 2 Neolithic Hungarian and 2 Neolithic Austrian farmers that belong to J2a but no further analysis has been done, they will likely belong either to J2a-Z6055 or J2a-Z6048 based on the 2 Neolithic Farmers that belonged to these clades.

    There is also a Khazar J2a that has not been further tested that dates to the early medieval era.

    Seeing how very little J2a has been found in ancient samples and the diversity of subclades being even smaller makes the upcoming findings even more interesting, at the moment it looks like J2a-PF5008 and J2a-M319 spread with Iran Neolithic/Chalcolithic expansions, it is very likely that J2a-Z30685 also spread with this component seeing that it is also found in Samaritans and in Armenians. As for J2a-SK1321 is still found primarily in the Caucasus. J2a-Z6048 and J2a-Z6055 are Neolithic farmer lineages and expanded in all directions as they are found in Europe, the Middle East and South Asia.

    J2b

    J2b-M205 was found in Ain Ghazal Bronze Age Jordan

    J2b-L283 was found in Bronze Age Croatia, being very likely a proto Illyrian.

    J2b-M205 was found in Bronze Age Sidon Lebanon

    J2b-L283>Z600 was found in late Bronze Age Armenia, he is also Western shifting

    J2b-M205 was found in 1st Millennium BC Egypt

    J2b-M205 was found in Roman Gladiator and was of Middle Eastern origin (either Levantine or Egyptian, with Egyptian being more likely based on his autosomal).

    Like J2a, J2b has been rarely found especially in the J-M241 lineages, there is only 2 J2b-L283 samples found so far and it really seems that J2b-L283 lineages expanded with the Indo-Europeans, it probably got absorbed from the Maykop Culture (My prediction). As for J2b-M205 it is very clear this line expanded with Semitic speakers especially where it was found and the dates as well.

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  3. #2
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    Great thread Principe!

    As you know, I'm more interested in J2b-L283, and I pretty much agree with what you said about this branch considering what's known so far. Besides the theory that J2b-L283 expanded as an Indo-European marker (Maykop?), the alternative hypothesis I have is that it expanded from the Italian territory or the area around the Adriatic. However, this would mean that J2b-L283 (TMRCA 6000 ybp) came to Europe in the Neolithic and the LBA Armenian is a back-migration from Balkan/Europe, which seems unlikely, and therefore the Bronze Age I-E expansion makes more sense at the moment.

    You mentioned that the LBA Armenian J2b-L283>Z600* is "Western" shifted. I find this interesting. I'm not too good with Autosomal, but I wonder if this could mean he migrated from further West or even North.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Great thread Principe!

    As you know, I'm more interested in J2b-L283, and I pretty much agree with what you said about this branch considering what's known so far. Besides the theory that J2b-L283 expanded as an Indo-European marker (Maykop?), the alternative hypothesis I have is that it expanded from the Italian territory or the area around the Adriatic. However, this would mean that J2b-L283 (TMRCA 6000 ybp) came to Europe in the Neolithic and the LBA Armenian is a back-migration from Balkan/Europe, which seems unlikely, and therefore the Bronze Age I-E expansion makes more sense at the moment.

    You mentioned that the LBA Armenian J2b-L283>Z600* is "Western" shifted. I find this interesting. I'm not too good with Autosomal, but I wonder if this could mean he migrated from further West or even North.
    Thanks very much Trojet

    Autosomal is not my forte either, but the LBA Armenian does have Western or Steppe DNA, his Gedmatch kit is M263493, you can see on various calculators he comes out 30% EHG like which is a lot and on Gedrosia Neolithic K13 his 3 way population has him coming off as half Albanian plus a quarter Georgian and a quarter Steppe and all of his 2 way populations give him as part Turkish or Armenian and half Steppe. But what's interesting also is the J2b-L283 found in Bronze Age Croatia also comes out as 30% EHG/Steppe. In my opinion Maykop makes a lot of sense, probably was originally a Caucasian/Iran Neolithic marker and once in Maykop it got Indo-Europeanized and spread afterwards, this would easily explain why they haven't found it in the Pontic Steppe because it was more South in Caucasus.

    I forgot to write that the closest population that resembles LBA Armenian J2b-L283>Z600 is Abkhasian and Adygei which is roughly the 2 populations that inhabit the areas that was the Maykop culture.
    Last edited by Principe; 12-06-2017 at 04:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Thanks very much Trojet

    Autosomal is not my forte either, but the LBA Armenian does have Western or Steppe DNA, his Gedmatch kit is M263493, you can see on various calculators he comes out 30% EHG like which is a lot and on Gedrosia Neolithic K13 his 3 way population has him coming off as half Albanian plus a quarter Georgian and a quarter Steppe and all of his 2 way populations give him as part Turkish or Armenian and half Steppe. But what's interesting also is the J2b-L283 found in Bronze Age Croatia also comes out as 30% EHG/Steppe. In my opinion Maykop makes a lot of sense, probably was originally a Caucasian/Iran Neolithic marker and once in Maykop it got Indo-Europeanized and spread afterwards, this would easily explain why they haven't found it in the Pontic Steppe because it was more South in Caucasus.

    I forgot to write that the closest population that resembles LBA Armenian J2b-L283>Z600 is Abkhasian and Adygei which is roughly the 2 populations that inhabit the areas that was the Maykop culture.
    What is the Gedmatch kit of the BA Croatian one?

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    I'm not sure which one is the J2b, but here are MLBA as well as earlier ancient Armenians modelled on the basic ancient sources with nMonte PCoA, for an overview.

    Armn.png

    The MLBA certainly have EHG admixture, as already pointed out in the paper.
    However some of EHG was also present in the Chalcolithic, but fell away completely during the EBA, to come back again after 2200 BC.

    It suggests that (i) there was an early contact between Armenia and north of Caucasus since 4000 BC, perhaps 5000BC, corresponding with EHG appearing south and CHG north.
    EHG drops away during to zero in the EBA (Kura-Araxes culture), suggesting it represents the expansion of a new group with notably different affinity.
    The return of steppe admixture parallels the appearance of kurgan type burials in the middle Bronze Age, in parts of Armenia, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    What is the Gedmatch kit of the BA Croatian one?
    That sample comes from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/19/135616

    The raw data is not available yet. The components come from what was reported on the paper.

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    Quite informative, thanks!

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    It would be interesting for comparison a post on "the history of J1".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piquerobi View Post
    It would be interesting for comparison a post on "the history of J1".
    I'll probably open that thread when the upcoming Chalcolithic and Bronze Age data from Israel is released.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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