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Thread: The History of J2

  1. #41
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    Well there is some updates

    Big News for J2a-FGC9962 and special thanks to ddugas and open genomes for processing the samples from 137 genomes across Eurasian Steppes.

    From this paper we have 7 samples under J2a-FGC9962 and 1 under J2a-PF4993.

    We have 3 Tian Shan Saka (Scythians) including one who belongs to J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32741 and the other 2 staying at the FGC9962 level.

    We have 2 Karakhanids that are also under J2a-FGC9962.

    And finally 2 Karluks belonging to J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32741 and J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32507.

    Additionally from the paper we have a medieval Nomad from Tian Shan that carries J2a2-L581>PF4993.

    In terms of what this all means in their history and how it relates to the History of J2, well seeing that FGC9962 was found and there is 2 downstreams of it found throughout the ages would suggest that J2a-FGC9962 is from the area or near by. Thus the best candidate would be the original inhabitants of the BMAC or Oxus civilization. This was a very civilized culture that had an extensive trading routes with near by cultures such as IVC and Elamites. They also had a profound influence on the incoming Indo Aryans and Indo Iranians.

    The History of BMAC or Oxus Civilization is very interesting and I'll post the wiki article just for a base in understanding its history.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactri...ogical_Complex

    I will also post the Full Tree of J2a-FGC9962

    https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y14698/

    As for Medieval Nomad that was J2a-PF4993 at the moment its historical presence is not really understood based on the age of the sample and hopefully further ancient dna papers will find more samples under this subclade to understand its history.

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  3. #42
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    Further updates in light of the new paper involving the first horse herders and Bronze Age Anatolia.

    We have 5 new J2a's from this paper and thanks to the work of Open Genomes and 167273 we have further snp analysis.

    The first older two come from the Chalcolithic site of Namazga and one belongs to J2a-PF5197>YSC0000253, unfortunately the other sample is of lower coverage but could be deduced to belong to J2a-L24.

    Yfull Tree of J2a-YSC0000253

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YSC0000253/

    Historically this would make J2a-YSC0000253 a lineage of the original BMAC or Oxus civilization before Indo-Ayran and Indo-Iranian expansions, and thus with the results from the 137 genomes from the Eurasian Steppe we now know that J2a-YSC0000253 and J2a-FGC9962 (Y14698) were lineages of the original BMAC people. It will be possible that more branches of J2a and possibly J2b will discovered in belonging to the original Oxus or BMAC civilization, this will definitely be updated once the Central and South Asian paper samples will be released.

    As for their spread into the area, it is very likely but will need ancient dna to confirm, is the Jeitun Culture.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitun

    The next three come from Bronze Age Anatolia, the first 2 date to the old Hittite period and the other is from Early Bronze Age Anatolia II. The results for them are two J2a-Z467>Z6271 (S21160) and the other belongs to J2a-Z6065>Y37496.

    These three results are the remnants of the previous Early Bronze Age and Chalcolithic Anatolian Cultures, and it is very likely with high confidence that they are the first three Hattic samples that we have, there is of course the possibility that they may belong to the Kura Araxes Culture but more sampling of the area will be needed to see.

    The Yfull charts of both J2a-Z6271 and J2a-Y37496

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6271/

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y37496/

    I am also posting the wiki article of the Hattians as they are an interesting civilization, as well as the article on the Hittites in which the samples belonging in this era

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattians

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

    I am hopeful that more samples from the area and surrounding areas will be published so a more complete history can be told of the expansion of J2a-PF5116 lineages.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Well there is some updates

    Big News for J2a-FGC9962 and special thanks to ddugas and open genomes for processing the samples from 137 genomes across Eurasian Steppes.

    From this paper we have 7 samples under J2a-FGC9962 and 1 under J2a-PF4993.

    We have 3 Tian Shan Saka (Scythians) including one who belongs to J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32741 and the other 2 staying at the FGC9962 level.

    We have 2 Karakhanids that are also under J2a-FGC9962.

    And finally 2 Karluks belonging to J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32741 and J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32507.

    Additionally from the paper we have a medieval Nomad from Tian Shan that carries J2a2-L581>PF4993.

    In terms of what this all means in their history and how it relates to the History of J2, well seeing that FGC9962 was found and there is 2 downstreams of it found throughout the ages would suggest that J2a-FGC9962 is from the area or near by. Thus the best candidate would be the original inhabitants of the BMAC or Oxus civilization. This was a very civilized culture that had an extensive trading routes with near by cultures such as IVC and Elamites. They also had a profound influence on the incoming Indo Aryans and Indo Iranians.

    The History of BMAC or Oxus Civilization is very interesting and I'll post the wiki article just for a base in understanding its history.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactri...ogical_Complex

    I will also post the Full Tree of J2a-FGC9962

    https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y14698/

    As for Medieval Nomad that was J2a-PF4993 at the moment its historical presence is not really understood based on the age of the sample and hopefully further ancient dna papers will find more samples under this subclade to understand its history.
    Here is a link to the archaeological description of the Eurasian Steppe Y-DNA haplogroup J2a samples burials. The DA124 Issyk Medieval Nomad burial and the DA203 and DA204 Karakhanid samples are the only ones where the actual individual burials are described in detail. The Baskiya-1 burial ground where the J2a DA57, DA58 and DA59 Tian Shan Saka remains are found is described but the individual burials for some reason are not described in detail which is rather unfortunate. Also I can't find any information about the DA222 and DA230 Karluk samples burials anywhere.

    https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf

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  7. #44
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    Here is the description of the DA124 Medieval Issyk Nomad sample that belongs to Y-DNA haplogroup J2a....Not much information is given about the skull or skeleton that this DNA sample was taken from though for some reason.

    ''The Medieval Issyk nomad
    By Gulmira Mukhtarova
    Bone samples were taken from a skull found in a burial site in the territory of Issyk Mogilnik, located
    50-55 km east of the city of Almaty, that spans both sides of the Issyk River in the immediate vicinity
    of the town of Issyk at the center of the Enbekshikazakh district of the Almaty region.
    Recent data has shown that the cemetery covers a larger area than previously thought, including both
    banks of the river Issyk, extending for up to 10 km. More than 300 medium and large burial mounds
    have been identified in this necropolis, together with a large number of smaller ones (i.e. <0.5 m in
    height). One of the four parts of the cemetery has been completely covered by the residential and
    commercial buildings of the city of Issyk. Other parts have also been subjected to demolition or
    modification in the course of human activities.
    The location of the Issyk necropolis has been known since 1936. The most significant expedition to the
    site was that of 1969-70. Arising from rescue excavations following construction of a parking lot, a
    royal burial ground was found that had been undisturbed by robbers. This burial site is known as the
    "Golden Man".''

  8. #45
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    I know this is an older thread, but I have been interested as of late as to the origins of J2 in Europe, especially J2a. I have looked at a few ancient samples and one that sticks out to me is the FEB3 and FEB3a/I1902 samples. Now I have looked at both of the papers these samples were reported in and it appears that these two may be the same person, for in the first paper Szecsenyi-Nagy 2015, FEB3 was reported as having just mtdna haplogroup H, and now in the most recent paper Lipson et al 2017, FEB3a/I1902 is reported as having H44, and a more specific subclade of J2 (J2a-L152). Also being reported as FEB3a leads me to believe that this is more of an updated sample, rather than a new sample.

  9. #46
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    Alright guys further updates on J2 based on ancient samples, the first sample to mention is an update on the Mycenaean sample that is solely classified as J2a-L26 from the Mycenaean site of Troezen, it turns out that he is positive for Z6057 but the sample is of lower quality and thus further downstream analysis is not possible. What does this mean in terms of history, well seeing how Z6057 has appeared in the Neolithic Sopot culture and Lengyel Cultures of Croatia and Hungary respectively , its possible that Z6057 could have been a Neolithic marker in Greece as well and makes this sample a local inhabitants that admixed with the new incoming Greek speakers, a second option can be that as the ancestors of the Mycenaeans came down to Greece they mixed with the local farmers of Carpathian mountain range bring Z6057 down with them.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13> A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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  11. #47
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    Now an update with samples from the Greater Caucasus paper.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/earl...medium=twitter

    At the moment we have 5 confirmed J2 samples from this paper 4 of which have been further analyzed and 1 which we are awaiting the final results I2051 which is J2a. Amongst the 4 analyzed samples we have 1 J2b and 3 J2a. We can thank Trojet for excellent work on doing the Y snp calls.

    The J2b belongs to J2b-L283*, this is a huge result, the sample is KDC001 and belongs to the Middle Bronze Age Northern Caucasus, this is now the third time we J2b-L283 in ancient dna, we have another L283* amongst the later Late Bronze Age Armenian samples and amongst the Middle Bronze Age Croatia in which the sample belongs to J2b-L283>Y15058*. What this result proves is that L283 sometime in past merged into the Steppe populations and became an IE marker and was important in the IE migrations into the Balkans, in fact the Croatian result would suggest that it is a Proto-Illyrian. L283 came in via the North whereas majority of J2 spread with Iran Neo/CHL/CHG, the mystery remains when L283 entered the Steppe population a Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age entry would be the most plausible, the most reasonable scenario would include somewhere between Z600 and Z615 (somewhere around 5400-4700 ybp) would make the most sense as the result of KDC001 seems to be closer related to the local Caucasian groups and the LBA Armenian sample is over 30% Steppe and at the same terminal clade, in other words we have 2 extinct branches at the same level and we the Croatian sample that has further designation, we know that 2 branches under L283 entered the Pontic Steppe. L283 entering can be similar to how R1b-V1636 which was found in the Chalcholithic Steppe made it into further Kura Araxes samples later on, L283 could have been brought in through cultural interactions either via Maykop proper or through Leyla Tepe which is bound to have been similar to Haji Faruz (samples awaiting to be published but 2 J2b's have been found).

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

    As for our three analyzed J2a samples they all belong J2a-Y11200 which is under the J2a-Z7671 branch. This comes to no surprise as today Z7671 is by far the most common J2a branch in the Caucasus followed by J2a-Z6048>SK1321 (which was found in Kotias Kide). The samples include I6266 and I6268 which are Maykop samples and I2056 which is a Chalcolithic sample dating from roughly 6477 or 6500 ybp this would suggest that Y11200 has an old presence in the Caucasus and that the Z30677 branch was born in the Caucasus, the results of the Maykop samples make the TMRCA of Z30677 a bit dubious since the Maykop samples are younger than Z30677's TMRCA its possible that Z30677 is in fact younger than estimated. The Chalcolithic sample also suggests that the original language of the Y11200 was not Northeast Caucasian as this language family was likely brought in by the Kura Araxes Culture, Y11200 original cultural language could have been Northwestern Caucasian or Kartvelian, apart from the linguistic association the migration of Y11200 is not associated with the migration of Kura Araxes and was brought in earlier, Shulaveri-Shomu Culture is a likely candidate as it is believed to be influenced by Halaf and Hassuna which would make sense with the increased Iran Neolithic admixture, as we see this component is associated with the movement of J lineages during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age periods.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y11200/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulaveri-Shomu_culture
    Last edited by Principe; 12-28-2018 at 06:30 PM.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13> A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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  13. #48
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    Neat stuff. The one thing that puzzles me is the extent of the "MRCA horizon", or when J2a branches began forming in the Caucasus, and when they formed elsewhere. I'd like to figure out which SNP definitively marked the dawn of the Caucasian branches, whether it was as old as Z7671 or as new as Z30677.
    YFull's tree makes clear distinctions for this set of SNPs. It's obvious which branches are Chechen, Saudi, and Caribbean. For this reason Y23162* sticks out like a sore thumb with its exclusively West Euro results. I'm too poor to afford a full sequence, but I have little doubt that's where I would fall. My curiosity is unbounded regarding just how this branch made it into Europe unlike its brothers.
    Predominantly Appalachian, Middle TN, and North GA roots

    Y-DNA in BR2's branch J-Y17946 (under M172, M67, Z7671, and Y11200). Interested in Z7671 and other J2 in the Caucasus

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  15. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepslayer View Post
    Neat stuff. The one thing that puzzles me is the extent of the "MRCA horizon", or when J2a branches began forming in the Caucasus, and when they formed elsewhere. I'd like to figure out which SNP definitively marked the dawn of the Caucasian branches, whether it was as old as Z7671 or as new as Z30677.
    YFull's tree makes clear distinctions for this set of SNPs. It's obvious which branches are Chechen, Saudi, and Caribbean. For this reason Y23162* sticks out like a sore thumb with its exclusively West Euro results. I'm too poor to afford a full sequence, but I have little doubt that's where I would fall. My curiosity is unbounded regarding just how this branch made it into Europe unlike its brothers.
    Honestly we'll more ancient samples to clear this out, Y11200 has been in the Caucasus for some as it's been there before Z30677's ancestor, and even that they found an ancient Y17946 in Bronze Age Hungary makes it even more difficult to be certain, the ancestor surely was born in the area and probably travelled West via Turkey and entered Southern Europe sometime during the Early Bronze Age from where it moved into Balkans and Central Europe, I doubt it came via the Steppe because we would see it much more defined like L283. There seems to have been a earlier migration from Caucasus and Fertile Crescent that brought some J2a branches into Turkey during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13> A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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  17. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Now an update with samples from the Greater Caucasus paper.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/earl...medium=twitter

    At the moment we have 5 confirmed J2 samples from this paper 4 of which have been further analyzed and 1 which we are awaiting the final results I2051 which is J2a. Amongst the 4 analyzed samples we have 1 J2b and 3 J2a. We can thank Trojet for excellent work on doing the Y snp calls.

    The J2b belongs to J2b-L283*, this is a huge result, the sample is KDC001 and belongs to the Middle Bronze Age Northern Caucasus, this is now the third time we J2b-L283 in ancient dna, we have another L283* amongst the later Late Bronze Age Armenian samples and amongst the Middle Bronze Age Croatia in which the sample belongs to J2b-L283>Y15058*. What this result proves is that L283 sometime in past merged into the Steppe populations and became an IE marker and was important in the IE migrations into the Balkans, in fact the Croatian result would suggest that it is a Proto-Illyrian. L283 came in via the North whereas majority of J2 spread with Iran Neo/CHL/CHG, the mystery remains when L283 entered the Steppe population a Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age entry would be the most plausible, the most reasonable scenario would include somewhere between Z600 and Z615 (somewhere around 5400-4700 ybp) would make the most sense as the result of KDC001 seems to be closer related to the local Caucasian groups and the LBA Armenian sample is over 30% Steppe and at the same terminal clade, in other words we have 2 extinct branches at the same level and we the Croatian sample that has further designation, we know that 2 branches under L283 entered the Pontic Steppe. L283 entering can be similar to how R1b-V1636 which was found in the Chalcholithic Steppe made it into further Kura Araxes samples later on, L283 could have been brought in through cultural interactions either via Maykop proper or through Leyla Tepe which is bound to have been similar to Haji Faruz (samples awaiting to be published but 2 J2b's have been found).

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

    As for our three analyzed J2a samples they all belong J2a-Y11200 which is under the J2a-Z7671 branch. This comes to no surprise as today Z7671 is by far the most common J2a branch in the Caucasus followed by J2a-Z6048>SK1321 (which was found in Kotias Kide). The samples include I6266 and I6268 which are Maykop samples and I2056 which is a Chalcolithic sample dating from roughly 6477 or 6500 ybp this would suggest that Y11200 has an old presence in the Caucasus and that the Z30677 branch was born in the Caucasus, the results of the Maykop samples make the TMRCA of Z30677 a bit dubious since the Maykop samples are younger than Z30677's TMRCA its possible that Z30677 is in fact younger than estimated. The Chalcolithic sample also suggests that the original language of the Y11200 was not Northeast Caucasian as this language family was likely brought in by the Kura Araxes Culture, Y11200 original cultural language could have been Northwestern Caucasian or Kartvelian, apart from the linguistic association the migration of Y11200 is not associated with the migration of Kura Araxes and was brought in earlier, Shulaveri-Shomu Culture is a likely candidate as it is believed to be influenced by Halaf and Hassuna which would make sense with the increased Iran Neolithic admixture, as we see this component is associated with the movement of J lineages during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age periods.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y11200/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulaveri-Shomu_culture
    So then J2a-Z6048>SK1321 may be of local Mesolithic hunter-gatherer origin while J2a-Y11200 may have come to the Caucasus with Neolithic Shulaveri-Shomu migrants. Of course we need actual DNA from Shulaveri-Shomu remains to prove that.

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