Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: Roman era Headless Gladiators of York page updated!

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    681
    Sex
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Ethnicity
    NW European/Celto-Germani
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U106-DF98
    mtDNA
    T2b2bIrish/Scan

    Ireland Scotland Germany Canada Netherlands Northern Ireland

    Roman era Headless Gladiators of York page updated!

    Hey all! I follow the York Driffield Terrace guys closely and recently there has been a new documentary out via Smithsonian Secrets series or Ancient Mysteries (in the UK) reinforcing the researcher's hypothesis that these guys were most likely Gladiators etc. Here are a couple short bits from the program... https://www.smithsonianchannel.com/v...-history/59283
    and
    https://www.smithsonianchannel.com/v...rishment/59282

    York Archaeology's updated page on these guys: http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/res...iators-year-2/

    Watch the video (I paid 3 dollars for episode 4 Headless Gladiators of York at Amazon) or watch the shorts and check out the York Archaeology page and discuss ;-). I have a personally interest in these guys as both 3driffield - skeleton 16 and 6driffield - skeleton 3 are both under my group R1b-U106 and additional SNPs...

    Cheers!
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817. I share these SNPs w/ York Gladiator 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Ireland, Scandinavia and Hungary - T2b female warrior Grave Bj 581 near Birka, Sweden. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

  2. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Bollox79 For This Useful Post:

     Aroon1916 (01-09-2019),  Dewsloth (12-06-2017),  Erikl86 (01-07-2019),  faulconer (01-08-2019),  Helen (01-12-2019),  Jenny (12-06-2017),  JMcB (01-07-2019),  JonikW (12-05-2017),  msmarjoribanks (12-06-2017),  Pascal C (12-06-2017),  Power77 (01-07-2019),  Wolds Wanderer (12-06-2017)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    681
    Sex
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Ethnicity
    NW European/Celto-Germani
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U106-DF98
    mtDNA
    T2b2bIrish/Scan

    Ireland Scotland Germany Canada Netherlands Northern Ireland
    Also earlier documentary on these guys here: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5kxcwt
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817. I share these SNPs w/ York Gladiator 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Ireland, Scandinavia and Hungary - T2b female warrior Grave Bj 581 near Birka, Sweden. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

  4. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Bollox79 For This Useful Post:

     Aroon1916 (01-09-2019),  Dewsloth (12-06-2017),  Jenny (12-06-2017),  JMcB (01-07-2019),  JonikW (12-05-2017),  msmarjoribanks (12-06-2017),  Power77 (01-07-2019),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (12-05-2017)

  5. #3
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,375
    Sex
    Location
    United States
    Ethnicity
    LebaGermish
    Y-DNA
    P312>DF19>DF88>S4268
    mtDNA
    J2a1a1e

    United States of America Lebanon Germany England Belgium Scotland
    Well, now we have more evidence of decapitation in 4th Century Roman burials. These can't all be gladiators.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-suffolk-46763020

    The Roman cemetery, which dates to the 4th Century, includes the remains of men, women and children who had probably lived in a nearby settlement.

    The fact that up to 40% of the bodies were decapitated represents "quite a rare find", particularly having the "statistical anomaly of having so many decapitations there".

    "We are looking at a very specific part of the population that followed a very specific tradition of burial," he said.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 (S17075-)

    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

  6. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Dewsloth For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-07-2019),  ArmandoR1b (01-08-2019),  Aroon1916 (01-09-2019),  Bollox79 (01-08-2019),  JonikW (01-08-2019),  msmarjoribanks (01-08-2019),  palamede (01-08-2019),  Power77 (01-07-2019),  R.Rocca (01-07-2019),  Ruderico (01-08-2019),  Saetro (01-07-2019)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    564
    Sex
    Location
    Waterville, ME
    Ethnicity
    Great Migration Colonists
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U106 (S10415)
    mtDNA
    J1c2g (FMS)

    United States Gadsden England Scotland Ireland Wales
    The article doesn't say whether the decapitated skeletons are of both sexes or only males (or only females). An interesting discovery which (as usual) leaves more questions than answers.
    Gedmatch DNA: M032736 Gedcom: 6613110.
    Gedmatch Genesis: WH4547538
    co-administrator: Y-DNA R-U106 Haplogroup Project

  8. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Wing Genealogist For This Useful Post:

     Bollox79 (01-08-2019),  Dewsloth (01-07-2019),  JonikW (01-08-2019),  msmarjoribanks (01-08-2019)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    681
    Sex
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Ethnicity
    NW European/Celto-Germani
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U106-DF98
    mtDNA
    T2b2bIrish/Scan

    Ireland Scotland Germany Canada Netherlands Northern Ireland
    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    Well, now we have more evidence of decapitation in 4th Century Roman burials. These can't all be gladiators.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-suffolk-46763020
    Hmm they need to look at the skeletons that were decapitated and see if they were similar to the Driffield Terrace guys in that they were generally as tall or a bit taller than the average - all male - most were well built (i.e. evidence of training etc) and also a ton of evidence for interpersonal violence per trauma (not only was Driffield compared to the gladiators of Ephesus - but there were parallels between the skeletons at Driffield and the skeletons of the English soldier skeletons of the Towton mass grave etc that I noticed after watching a video on Towton a few times over)...

    That is the thing with the Driffield skeletons and perhaps this newer cemetery... not enough context to REALLY know who they were... I still think there is something significant in the fact that 3drif-16 and 6drif-3 had more of an autosomal affinity with East Baltic (say Northern Poland/Latvia - that area) than the other "gladiators." I don't think it's a fluke that my newest match in my small group of FGC14840 has paternal ancestry from Old Prussia/Poland... if he and I share more variants (he took BigY now waiting on results) of mine - I think that may be significant... the Baltic connection with 6drif-3 anyway!

    Edit: Additionally I am pretty sure that 3drif-16 and 6drif-3 were of mixed Gaelic and Germanic ancestry - as they were looked at in the Iceland paper also next to those samples (and pertinent to this discussion because I hypothesize that 3drif-16 and 6drif-3 were mixed Germanic and Gaelic very similar to the later Iceland samples in that they are also a mixture of Isles native Gaelic and Germanic from the Baltic etc):

    for 3drif-16: Additional autosomal info on 3drif-16 from the Iceland early settler paper: D-stat given that pop 1 is Norse and pop 2 is Icelandic: D-stat = 0.001 - closer to zero equals mixed ancestry. Given pop 1 is Gaelic and pop 2 is Icelandic: D-stat = 0.0001. Note: Negative values indicate more pop 1 ancestry and positive values indicate more pop 2 ancestry, whereas values close to zero indicate mixed ancestry (as the contemporary Norse and Gaelic are the two best candidate source populations for Icelanders).

    for 6drif-3: Additional autosomal info on 6drif-3 from the Iceland early settler paper: D-stat given that pop 1 is Norse and pop 2 is Icelandic: D-stat = 0.0007 - closer to zero equals mixed ancestry. Given pop 1 is Gaelic and pop 2 is Icelandic: D-stat = 0.0001. Note: Negative values indicate more pop 1 ancestry and positive values indicate more pop 2 ancestry, whereas values close to zero indicate mixed ancestry (as the contemporary Norse and Gaelic are the two best candidate source populations for Icelanders).
    Last edited by Bollox79; 01-08-2019 at 06:49 AM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817. I share these SNPs w/ York Gladiator 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Ireland, Scandinavia and Hungary - T2b female warrior Grave Bj 581 near Birka, Sweden. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

  10. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Bollox79 For This Useful Post:

     Dewsloth (01-08-2019),  fabrice E (01-08-2019),  JMcB (01-08-2019),  JonikW (01-08-2019),  Ruderico (01-08-2019),  Wing Genealogist (01-08-2019)

  11. #6
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    1,074
    Sex
    Location
    Florida, USA.
    Ethnicity
    English, Scottish & Irish
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    I-A13243
    mtDNA
    H1e2

    England Scotland Ireland United States of America Vatican Germany Schleswig-Holstein
    David also spoke to this at one point:

    The rest of the headless Romans were, in all likelihood, born and raised in or near Britain. However, two of the individuals, 3DRIF-16 and 6DRIF-3, show elevated IBS affinity to Lithuanians and Poles. At the same time, they both belong to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b-U106 (aka M405), which is a marker generally thought to have arrived in Britain with Anglo-Saxons and Scandinavians. This might be a coincidence, but probably not.

    D-stats confirm that they do show elevated Northeastern European affinity relative to the other three Romans. Only one of the Z-scores is statistically significant (>3), but most of the others would probably also reach significance with more SNPs and higher quality sequences.

    My guess is that 3DRIF-16 and 6DRIF-3 were Britons of mixed origin, with recent ancestry from Scandinavia and/or East Central Europe. Indeed, they can be modeled with qpAdm as part Swedish and Polish.

    England_Roman 0.869
    Swedish 0.131
    chisq 1.784 tail prob 0.775339

    England_Roman 0.884
    Polish 0.116
    chisq 1.971 tail prob 0.741124


    The enigmatic headless Romans from York
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/0...from-york.html
    Known Paper Trail: 45.3% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian. Or: 87.5% British Isles, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian.
    LivingDNA: 88.1% British Isles (59.7% English, 27% Scottish & 1.3% Irish), 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%), 4.4% Europe NW (Scandinavia) & 1.6% Europe East, (Mordovia).
    FT Big Y: I1-Z140 branch I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 930 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 1075 AD) >A13243/YSEQ (circa 1660 AD).

  12. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to JMcB For This Useful Post:

     Aroon1916 (01-09-2019),  Artmar (01-11-2019),  Bollox79 (01-09-2019),  Dewsloth (01-08-2019),  glentane (01-08-2019),  JonikW (01-09-2019),  Wing Genealogist (01-08-2019)

Similar Threads

  1. Roman era gladiators from York in K36
    By Tomenable in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 117
    Last Post: 12-11-2017, 01:00 AM
  2. Replies: 96
    Last Post: 02-21-2017, 08:06 PM
  3. Page Help for Y-DNA - Standard Y-STR Values
    By Mac von Frankfurt in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-30-2015, 02:55 AM
  4. Updated Haplogroup J page on Eupedia
    By Gray Fox in forum J
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-08-2014, 08:25 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •