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Thread: Ancient DNA map

  1. #91
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    Alberto, a native Spanish speaker saw the Video Isidro linked.

    This is what he made out

    'They advance that the few males they have from the sites of La Bastida and La Almoloya, they show that males came from outside, originating in the P-C steppe, moving to Western Europe, British Islands and from there arriving to Galicia (NW Iberia) and finally reaching the South East, where El Argar culture is placed.

    They confirm it's mostly men mixing with local women. But things must have been complex from a cultural point of view. For example, the C14 dates from the wall of La Bastida are from 2200 BC. And that wall is designed in a new and advanced way, with no parallels in the rest of Iberia or Western and Central Europe. The closest model to it is in Troy and others in the Levant.

    At the same time, the oldest burials are from women. And overall the burials also resemble Eastern Mediterranean traditions (large jars -Pithoi- under the house floor).

    It seems we'll still have to wait for the results to be published, since genome-wide analysis is underway. But very interesting to know that R1b was already there.''

    He also makes the point that part of Iberia didnöt speak IE until Roman times.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 12-20-2017 at 04:34 PM.

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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    El Argar is middle Bronze isn't it? Basic wiki states 2200-1500 BC. I don't recall any steppe admix in any old Iberian samples until a minor amount shows up from 1600 BC Portugal. Those men were P312+. J2 is suddenly Yamnaya? That's news to me.

    Recall that J2 shows up in Portugal but is quite lower in Spain as a whole. Perhaps the Phoenician link is legitimate. The older 'farmers' were probably G2a and local I2a and V88.
    Of course I was meaning I2a from Yamna, not J2. J2 was present in the Neolithic, so why not in Iberia?

    El Argar is Bronze Age, but not linked with Indoeuropean language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Alberto, a native Spanish speaker saw the Video Isidro linked.

    This is what he made out

    'They advance that the few males they have from the sites of La Bastida and La Almoloya, they show that males came from outside, originating in the P-C steppe, moving to Western Europe, British Islands and from there arriving to Galicia (NW Iberia) and finally reaching the South East, where El Argar culture is placed.

    They confirm it's mostly men mixing with local women. But things must have been complex from a cultural point of view. For example, the C14 dates from the wall of La Bastida are from 2200 BC. And that wall is designed in a new and advanced way, with no parallels in the rest of Iberia or Western and Central Europe. The closest model to it is in Troy and others in the Levant.

    At the same time, the oldest burials are from women. And overall the burials also resemble Eastern Mediterranean traditions (large jars -Pithoi- under the house floor).

    It seems we'll still have to wait for the results to be published, since genome-wide analysis is underway. But very interesting to know that R1b was already there.''

    He also makes the point that part of Iberia didnöt speak IE until Roman times.
    So they were British Beakers in origin?

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    On the last video I linked,Rafael Mico is interviewed about El Argar, he does mention more precisely that a while back it was assumed that from centers like La Bastida de Totana and La Almoloya spread evenly across the peninsula, After the new findings he describes different regions on the outer layers and regions further out in the periphery, all within Iberia and that they were influenced by El Argar culture; but he is clear that they were different culturally and perhaps biologically, he avoided getting too deep into the appearances and emphasized the cultural aspect.

    That is why I was surprised with the South of Russia comment, and if it was a hint of that possibility in a Mediterranean architectural context I would guess the original settlers of El Argar being genetically like their counterpart in the Med. Levant and then overrun by males from other parts of the Peninsula and that opens the possibility of R!b, regardless where that R1b was prior to Bronze Age 2,200 BC.
    Last edited by Isidro; 12-24-2017 at 12:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Alberto, a native Spanish speaker saw the Video Isidro linked.

    This is what he made out

    'They advance that the few males they have from the sites of La Bastida and La Almoloya, they show that males came from outside, originating in the P-C steppe, moving to Western Europe, British Islands and from there arriving to Galicia (NW Iberia) and finally reaching the South East, where El Argar culture is placed.
    This would fit well with what I said here about DF27 going from Central Europe to Brittany, then to Southwest England and on into Ireland. From Brittany they could have also headed south to Iberia.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post326262

    So you end up with something like this as it pertains to DF27. Not sure if they would have taken a coastal route or across the Biscayne Bay.



    A similar map someone made earlier with the same rough idea but with multiple entry point into British Isles and Iberia.

    https://6c7606fa-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites....attredirects=0
    https://sites.google.com/site/rox2cl...stribution-map
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 12-24-2017 at 06:11 PM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

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  8. #96
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    Wonder if that has any connection to the spread of the Atlantic cist tradition?

    bell beaker atlantic cist tradition.jpg

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  10. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    So you end up with something like this as it pertains to DF27. Not sure if they would have taken a coastal route or across the Biscayne Bay.
    Very interesting map!

    Recently I tested at YSEQ for two SNPs below L617, and according to YSEQ I'm positive for M225 which is the "Iberian" branch. I'm surprised because I rather expected that I belong to the "British" branch (FGC1495) or to the "Eastern" L617* branch (present for example in Lithuania). Was anyone able to determine which subclades of R1b-M269 did Polish Bell Beaker samples from Samborzec belong to? Was it DF27?:

    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co...ka-poland.html

    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co...g-page_25.html

    Ancient DNA samples from Copper Age and Bronze Age Poland (including 3x R1b-M269 from Samborzec):

     

    Bell Beaker Poland, Samborzec [I4253 / RISE1124 / grave no. 13], M, 2571-2208 BC, 452974 SNPs, R1b1a1a2 [M269]
    Bell Beaker Poland, Samborzec [I4251 / RISE1122/ grave no. 7], M, 2400-2200 BC, 80714 SNPs, R1b1a1a2 [M269]
    Bell Beaker Poland, Samborzec [I4252 / RISE1123 / grave no. 1], M, 2463-2142 BCE, 30131 SNPs, R1b1a1a2 [M269]

    Samborzec Bell Beakers are 46% Steppe + 38% Neolithic + 16% HG (see Table S4. in Supplement):

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/135962-1.pdf

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...35962.full.pdf

    For comparison Polish GAC samples from Kierzkowo are ca. 75% Neolithic + 25% HG and with Y-DNA I2:

     
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-01-2018 at 02:44 PM.

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  12. #98
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    That seems like a plausible route, although I would suggest after reading the link below a more sea like route coming down the Atlantic, crossing the Straight of Gibraltar, settling in the Argar core zone and expanding to the rest of Iberia from 2200 BC to the beginning of the Iron Age.


    https://www.academia.edu/5331557/Bronze_Age_Iberia
    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    This would fit well with what I said here about DF27 going from Central Europe to Brittany, then to Southwest England and on into Ireland. From Brittany they could have also headed south to Iberia.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post326262

    So you end up with something like this as it pertains to DF27. Not sure if they would have taken a coastal route or across the Biscayne Bay.



    A similar map someone made earlier with the same rough idea but with multiple entry point into British Isles and Iberia.

    https://6c7606fa-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites....attredirects=0
    https://sites.google.com/site/rox2cl...stribution-map

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    I don't think all the DF27 arrived in UK/Ireland at the same time, but that said, your route through Brittany looks more like how I envisioned L21+, not DF27. Nobody asked my opinion but I will offer it anyways. I suspect a large chunk of DF27 goes through Switzerland and down the Rhone and follows the southern coasts of France and the east of Iberia.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  16. #100
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    I have a question regarding this K=12 data from Mathieson 2017. Light green component - which peaks in CHG and Iran Neolithic samples - is apparently absent from Ukraine Eneolithic and Corded Ware, but present in Yamnaya. Does it indicate that Sredni Stog II (I6561 with R1a-M417) and Corded Ware had absolutely no any CHG / Iran Neolithic admixture? Or is some CHG admixture already included in the main orange steppe component, and light green in Yamnaya just indicates that they had some extra amount of "Gedrosian" (?) admixture?:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...35616.full.pdf





    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/1...hungarian.html



    Maybe this light green is related to differences between "Caucasus" and "Gedrosian" admixtures?
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-01-2018 at 07:20 PM.

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