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Thread: West Slavs vs. East Germans: genetic comparison

  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    I´m aware of the the usual understanding of German as you correctly showed it and and do widely agree to that. I was just expressing my personal feelings towards Sorbs. Saying to regard them Germans just expressed that I regard them as part of my (German) people. But I admit it is an important point they do not have another homeland outside Germany AND they ALL speak German too. There is practically no Sorb not also speaking German.

    I´m also aware of a certain parallelism regarding Czechs. They were also once kind of an island within German people area and a very solid part of the (first) Reich. Why they in the end did not get germanized is a little historical conundrum to me. My idea is: In general there was a culture gradient between German and Slavic culture in the middle ages with the Germans being "superior" in most aspects. In respect to power German nobility overthrow big parts of Slavic nobility in most areas later germanized. But this did not happen in Bohemia. Czech nobility was very strong and active. There was hardly any chance for German nobility to get into that "team". At the same time there was also no notable gradient between German level and material and cultural level of Czechs in Bohemia. I think this made Czechs the only resistant "western west Slavs".
    I´m not sure, but I suspect this to have it´s root in Bohemian Slavs did assimilate a lot of DNA from Germanics, which had stayed in the very fertile central Bohemia in numbers. It maybe sounds paradox, but I think this actually prevented later germanization. Bohemia did never have a need for germanization for it´s development. It was comfortable like a fish in the water within German Empire from the early times. Fateful causalities of DNA.
    But Czech nobility was nearly slaughtered in XVII century. It was not the case. Then Czechs were completely un-aristocratic society, complete opposition to Poles.

    I think only thing which prevent Czech germanization was being part of Austria not Prussia. If Silesia wouldn't be conquered by Prussians in XVIII century I think still original Silesian dialect will be present near Wroclaw.
    Austrians weren't capable of germanize anyone, even neighbouring, small Slovenians resisted 1200 years of their pressure Prussian national character was the main difference...
    Last edited by lukaszM; 03-08-2018 at 09:34 PM.
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  3. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Interesting article about the Seipel Line, which divides Europe into two parts with different concepts of the "Nation":

    http://faculty.ce.berkeley.edu/coby/essays/seipel.htm
    Yes .

  4. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    He is still very far from Lithuania. But I wonder if we can get any kits of actual Prussian Lithuanians*, Masurians and Warmiaks.

    *Map: http://lietuvos.istorija.net/kleinli...ilietuva18.htm

    On one Polish forum there is a user who is Warmiak but I asked him and he is only 3/4 Warmiak and 1/4 Kresy Pole. We also already have one kit of a person (nick Kwestos IIRC) who is 1/4 Warmiak. If you still have him in Greater Poland average, please remove him.
    I don´t understand the ask for a Warmiak (Ermländer). Is the expected any special to this area compared to it´s surrounding? (I´d no reason to expect that.)

  5. #174
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    Fascinating thread and I appreciate all the contributions from the participants, chapeau.

  6. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    I don´t understand the ask for a Warmiak (Ermländer). Is the expected any special to this area compared to it´s surrounding? (I´d no reason to expect that.)
    Yes, he is an ethnically Polish Warmiak (don't confuse with Lutheran Poles or Lutheran "Polish-speaking Germans" - Masurians). Southern Warmia (Allenstein/Olsztyn and Roessel/Reszel) had mainly Polish-speaking population, northern Warmia (Braunsberg & Lautenburg/Heilsberg), had almost exclusively German-speaking population. Which is why I added northern Ermland to Oberland, while ethnographic Warmia to Masuria. Northern Ermland (Lidzbark/Lautenburg/Heilsberg and Braunsberg/Braniewo) was incorporated into Koenigsberg department after 1772:

    (...) These events caused significant demographical changes in the Lidzbark district. In 1708-1717, a final wave of additional [Polish] migrations took place before the annexation of Warmia [by Prussia], which involved the same routes as before. A certain role was also played by refugees from Prussia [4] and by internal migrations. As a result of the first partition, Warmia lost its relationship with the Polish Republic and its political autonomy. On 15 September 1772, the Lidzbark district ended up within Prussia. Northern Warmia was divided into two counties: Braniewo and Lidzbark and was incorporated into the Królewiec department. Lidzbark Warmiński also became the seat of the local county, forming a union of twelve Warmian towns. Three judicial districts were also created: Braniewo, Lidzbark and Olsztyn. They were headed by judiciaries subordinated to the episcopal court in Lidzbark [5].

    The town ceased to be the seat of Warmian bishops in 1795. The last resident of the castle was Ignacy Krasicki [6]. Following him, many former inhabitants of Lidzbark left for Gniezno [7]. The autonomy of the bishopric was liquidated, and episcopal and capitular goods were appropriated by the state. The town never returned to its former importance and splendour as the “pearl of Warmia”. (...)

    [4] There were several reasons for emigration from Prussia: 1. religious discrimination, 2. banishment or escape from punishment, 3. search for better living conditions, 4. vagrancy of various types. See A. Birch-Hirschfeld, Eis- und Auswanderung zwischen Ermland und Herzogtum Preussen im 16. und 17. Jahrhundert, “Zeitschrift für die Geschichte und Alterumskunde Ermlands“ 1934, 25, p. 520-535.

    [6] His most famous works were created in Lidzbark: Myszeis, Monachomachia, Bajki, Satyry, Mikołaja Doświadczyńskiego przypadki.

    [7] See W. Ogrodziński, Lidzbark…, p. 14-16, 18.
    Map showing Reichstag election results in East Prussia in 1893 (see Warmia):

    http://s7.postimg.org/5ufath8kb/Kart...stpreussen.png



    Map "Development of Polish settlement in East Prussia 15th-18th centuries":



    1) Ethnic structure of eastern provinces of Kingdom of Prussia in early 1800s:

    https://postimg.org/image/onws4blfn/



    2) Dominant ethnicity per each Kreis of East Prussia in the 1700s-early 1800s:
    (but Lithuanian presence might be exaggerated here, especially in the 1800s)

    http://s21.postimg.org/4x5lnmcjb/East_Prussia.png



    3) Ethnographic southern Warmia, where a Polish dialect has been spoken:

    http://www.dialektologia.uw.edu.pl/i...ecki&l3=warmia



    4) Warmia was a Catholic region, unlike the rest of (Lutheran) East Prussia:



    Source:

    https://www.academia.edu/6466617/Geo...82owie_XVIII_w

    https://www.kul.pl/files/845/pdf/sza...uktur_2010.pdf

    Regions superimposed on counties (county borders are from 1900, but names of titular cities/counties are modern):

    Very large map: https://i.imgur.com/1h2ggNl.png



    ^^^ Maybe Oberland could be renamed Oberland-Ermland (as it includes northern, German-speaking, part of Warmia).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-30-2018 at 05:19 PM.

  7. #176
    Where did these Lithuanians in East Prussia come from?

    Did they include a large component of autochthonous Old Prussians or were they the result of recent direct migrations from the east?

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  9. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sklvn View Post
    Where did these Lithuanians in East Prussia come from?

    Did they include a large component of autochthonous Old Prussians
    or were they the result of recent direct migrations from the east?
    They came after the Treaty of Melno (1422) mainly from Samogitia and from other regions (including Lithuanian part of Sudovia). Hard to say to what extent they mixed with Old Prussians, because the area where they settled had been only very sparsely inhabited before 1422 (it was so called Great Wilderness, German: Große Wildnis). However, it did have some settlements (for example Splitter near Tilsit was an Old Prussian settlement of so called Lischke type). Until the Prussian Crusade (1218 - 1283), that area was inhabited by Old Prussian Nadruvians and Skalvians:

    Nadruvians (Lithuanian: Nadruviai) and Skalvians (Skalviai) inhabited eastern part of modern Kaliningrad Oblast:



    But after the Crusade, Teutonic Knights likely ethnically cleansed it by deporting most of inhabitants further west.

    Which is why it became known as Great Wilderness, a war-torn borderland between Teutonic Order and Lithuania.

    Nadruvia (German: Nadrauen) and Skalvia (German: Schalauen) became Lithuania Minor (German: Kleinlitauen):

     

    ^^^ About Kursenieki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursenieki
    Last edited by Tomenable; 04-01-2018 at 03:46 PM.

  10. #178
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    As of 1400, Great Wilderness was sparsely inhabited by beekeepers, lumbermen, hunters, etc. - mostly of Old Prussian origin. There also existed some larger Old Prussian settlements (Lischken) near each castle. And there were two fortified towns in the area as well - Insterburg and Tilsit. Lithuanians started immigrating there after 1422 and assimilated the locals. Hard to say in what % proportions they mixed.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 04-01-2018 at 01:48 PM.

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  12. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    But Czech nobility was nearly slaughtered in XVII century. It was not the case. Then Czechs were completely un-aristocratic society, complete opposition to Poles. I think only thing which prevent Czech germanization was being part of Austria not Prussia. If Silesia wouldn't be conquered by Prussians in XVIII century I think still original Silesian dialect will be present near Wroclaw. Austrians weren't capable of germanize anyone, even neighbouring, small Slovenians resisted 1200 years of their pressure Prussian national character was the main difference...
    Yeah, there was some advance of German language area in Silesia between 1500 and 1740, but not as fast as after that:



    Source (page 252/253): http://www.cyfronet.krakow.pl/~n1kok...stery-2015.pdf

  13. #180
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    Lithuanians of eastern side of eastern Prussia came from Sudovia . This ethnographic regions of modern day Lithuania where western Aukstaitijan dialect is spoken. There were some migrations from Samogitia. Back then Samogitia was further south-east in comparison to where it is today. Sudovian migration to eastern Prussia reflects in similarity of Sudovian dialect and dialect of Lithuanians lived in eastern Prussia. Modern literary Lithuanian is based on these dialects. Also in the fact that Lithuanian dialect of eastern Prussia had many Slavisms despite living in the area controlled by the Order and eastern Prussia. The migration occurred to the Great Wilderness between 15th-16th centuries. The area was empty around 1400. Nadruvians left no traces of their presence except names. Few Skalovians were mentioned in Turk Tax register of 1536 around Tilsit area. The reason for existence of the Great Wilderness was that the Order wanted a buffer zone , that was war area during the crusades. Lithuanians migrated after peace treaty between the Order and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania because Lithuanians were given land in the Great Wilderness; they fled conditions in the Grand Duchy, the Order/the Duchy also recruited them.

    Short summary of Lithuanian migration to eastern Prussia (in German)

    Grischa Vercamer: 2008_Einführung, in: Die Türkensteuer im Herzogtum Preußen 1540, Bd. 3: Ragnit, Insterburg, Saalau, Georgenburg (Sonderschriften des Vereins für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., 88/3), hrsg. von Diehlmann, Hans Heinz, Hamburg 2008, S. 7*-31*
    https://www.academia.edu/10622504/20...2008_S._7_-31_
    Last edited by Volat; 04-02-2018 at 05:10 AM.

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