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Thread: West Slavs vs. East Germans: genetic comparison

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    West Slavs vs. East Germans: genetic comparison

    Differences between East German and West Slavic regional samples in Eurogenes K36:

    https://i.imgur.com/AQH9OsC.png



    Sample sizes were listed here:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post322828

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    Great. Thanks! Very interesting for me, because nearly 60% of my known ancestry is from "East Germany" (however, I consider Mecklenburg more as North German than as East German because of the origin of the majority of the population). My ancestry: Mecklenburg 39.4%, Brandenburg 10.9%, Thuringia 5.5%, Bohemia 1.8% etc.... 3 of my great-grandfathers are from Mecklenburg, 1 from Thuringia, 1 great-grandmother is from Brandenburg.
    My Eurogenes K36 using your categories: NW Euro 41.14, SW Euro 18.47, Balkanid 5.69, NE Euro 11.22, Fennoscandian 13.01, Central Euro 8.72, Caucasic 1.72.
    Last edited by CelticGerman; 12-10-2017 at 08:25 PM.
    Y-DNA: R1b/U152/Z36/CTS4333/CTS7958, from Thuringia 1634, probably Alsace 1552, -- mt-DNA: H
    EUROGENES K13: North German 3.7, North Dutch 4.85, Danish 5.13, Swedish 5.44, Norwegian 5.7 -- West Eurasia K8: WHG 46.64%, ENF 39.09%, ANE 14.23%
    23andMe: speculative 26% French&German, 11.3% Scandinavian, 9.1% Eastern European, 8.8% British&Irish, 1.6% Southern European, 38% Broadly North Euro
    Known ancestry: 92.6% German (66.8% North German), 4.7% Danish, 1.8% Czech, 0.8% Austrian, 0.1% Swiss

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    Here is my PCA with all individual samples. Czechs pull towards South-West Euro admixtures (Iberian, Italian, etc.) while East Germans pull towards NW Euro admixtures (North Sea, North Atlantic, etc.):

    Green - Poles, Red - Czechs, Blue (including Light Blue) - Germans

    https://i.imgur.com/FiNXTXq.png



    Here I added East Slavic labels (averages). Label "Lviv" = Poles from Lviv, not Ukrainians:

    "Austria" = East Austrians (mix of regions but not Tyrol, which plots much further west):



    East Slavic area shown:



    Edit: Of course UA Vitebsk should be BY Vitebsk (as Vitebsk is in Belarus).

    What surprised me a little bit is that ethnic Poles from Lviv and surrounding areas plot more to the west than geography would suggest. They plot close to Lesser Poles and close to Upper Silesians. Map posted below show them as SE-Kresy (South-East Kresy). On the other hand, Poles from Wilno and Grodno region are clearly Baltic-shifted and plot close to Belarusians and Lithuanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CelticGerman View Post
    Great. Thanks! Very interesting for me, because nearly 60% of my known ancestry is from "East Germany" (however, I consider Mecklenburg more as North German than as East German because of the origin of the majority of the population). My ancestry: Mecklenburg 39.4%, Brandenburg 10.9%, Thuringia 5.5%, Bohemia 1.8% etc.... 3 of my great-grandfathers are from Mecklenburg, 1 from Thuringia, 1 great-grandmother is from Brandenburg.
    My Eurogenes K36 using your categories: NW Euro 41.14, SW Euro 18.47, Balkanid 5.69, NE Euro 11.22, Fennoscandian 13.01, Central Euro 8.72, Caucasic 1.72.
    What I noticed is that Mecklenburg is less Slavic-shifted than Vorpommern and Pommern.

    BTW, is Rostock area counted as Mecklenburg or already Vorpommern?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    What I noticed is that Mecklenburg is less Slavic-shifted than Vorpommern and Pommern.

    BTW, is Rostock area counted as Mecklenburg or already Vorpommern?
    Rostock is Mecklenburg.
    Y-DNA: R1b/U152/Z36/CTS4333/CTS7958, from Thuringia 1634, probably Alsace 1552, -- mt-DNA: H
    EUROGENES K13: North German 3.7, North Dutch 4.85, Danish 5.13, Swedish 5.44, Norwegian 5.7 -- West Eurasia K8: WHG 46.64%, ENF 39.09%, ANE 14.23%
    23andMe: speculative 26% French&German, 11.3% Scandinavian, 9.1% Eastern European, 8.8% British&Irish, 1.6% Southern European, 38% Broadly North Euro
    Known ancestry: 92.6% German (66.8% North German), 4.7% Danish, 1.8% Czech, 0.8% Austrian, 0.1% Swiss

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    Quote Originally Posted by CelticGerman View Post
    Rostock is Mecklenburg.
    So Rostock area is already genetically more Wendish than some other samples from Mecklenburg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Differences between East German and West Slavic regional samples in Eurogenes K36:

    https://i.imgur.com/AQH9OsC.png



    Sample sizes were listed here:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post322828
    Comparing my results to Upper-Silesians average in above table -Elevated components, NE Euro, NW Euro, Caucasic. Lower components, SW Euro, Balkanid, Central Euro, Fennoscadian
    NW Euro=25.04_21.80
    SW Euro=12.01_13.68
    Balkanid=2.53_6.90
    NE Euro=42.18_37.41
    Caucasic=2.75_1.29
    Central Euro=7.12_8.63
    Fennoscadian=8.36_10.09
    Last edited by Silesian; 12-10-2017 at 11:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    So Rostock area is already genetically more Wendish than some other samples from Mecklenburg.
    The coastal areas of Mecklenburg and Pomerania experienced more old-German settlement than the inner land. This is because of the heavy and good soils there. In spite of they are good, the Slavs could not really exploate them because there was needed an iron plow, which they did not have available, but the old-Germans. Parts of the inner land remaind Slavic for rather long times. As far west as in eastern lower Saxony there is the Wendland, where there was the last Slavic language spoken til mid 18th century. I expect this circumstances to show up genetically too. BUT: The more west Wends were the more they have probably assimilated smaller parts of prior Germanics.

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    Btw. the Slavic expansion - at least the westward one - is one of the big conundrums in history. From AD 1 till End of migration period (i. e. abt. 500 years) Germanics with an enormous historic "noise" managed to push the ethnic border some 100 or 150 km towards former Roman Empire. And then the Slavs expanded kind of "overnight" to cover half of Europe till the Line Kiel - Trieste. And half of "Magna Germania" just dissolved quite without any historic narrative. This is just incredible.
    Last edited by rothaer; 01-03-2018 at 01:05 PM.

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    There are two big events touching identity of Germans east of the Elbe/Saale rivers. One is the old-German colonisation from, say, AD 900 to AD 1900. A how big proportion of the Germans east of Elbe/Saale rivers are old-Germans (per AD 900) and how much are Western Slavs? And the other event is the Slavic expansion. A how big proportion of Western Slavs are "originally" Slavs from north-east slopes of Carpathians and what´s the rest?

    This question gets more complicated when one gets aware of the "rest" must not necessary be Germanics, at least not in a maybe expected sense. Eastern Germanics had germanized Celtics in Silesia, Bohemia, Moravia and also Slovakia, probably also in lesser Poland. But all these inhabitants were of course not Celts proper from Southern Germany, but to notable proportions celticised earlier inhabitants. No matter how the IE people originally between Germanics and Slavs are to be called, "Northern Illyrians" or whatever, they ought to be "part of the game"...
    Last edited by rothaer; 01-03-2018 at 01:33 PM.

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