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Thread: West Slavs vs. East Germans: genetic comparison

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    The coastal areas of Mecklenburg and Pomerania experienced more old-German settlement than the inner land. This is because of the heavy and good soils there. In spite of they are good, the Slavs could not really exploate them because there was needed an iron plow, which they did not have available, but the old-Germans. Parts of the inner land remaind Slavic for rather long times. As far west as in eastern lower Saxony there is the Wendland, where there was the last Slavic language spoken til mid 18th century. I expect this circumstances to show up genetically too. BUT: The more west Wends were the more they have probably assimilated smaller parts of prior Germanics.
    Many things may not be as you think:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...=1#post1323686

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    The coastal areas of Mecklenburg and Pomerania experienced more old-German settlement than the inner land. This is because of the heavy and good soils there. In spite of they are good, the Slavs could not really exploate them because there was needed an iron plow, which they did not have available, but the old-Germans. Parts of the inner land remaind Slavic for rather long times. As far west as in eastern lower Saxony there is the Wendland, where there was the last Slavic language spoken til mid 18th century. I expect this circumstances to show up genetically too. BUT: The more west Wends were the more they have probably assimilated smaller parts of prior Germanics.
    Basically german domination of the coastal areas was due to
    1- wendish crusades
    2- Teutonic knights and their war against old-prussians ( baltic ethnic people )
    and 3
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League

    later the emergence of Frederick the Great father and the Junkers ( german land-owners ) pushed south
    Last edited by vettor; 01-03-2018 at 05:19 PM.

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    Tomenable, or somebody from over that way -- do Kashubians enter this discussion in any way? My closest "match" on SNPs (BigY tested, and I'm also FGC tested) is a family with two distantly related branches testing in the US, but both perceive their immigrant ancestor from Poland as having been of the Kashubian ethnic group. My own family perceives itself as probably having had Franco-Norman origins in SW England (next to Wales), before coming to America in the mid 17th century. Either family may be mistaken about most of this; but some way or other, a family that came from England and one that came from Poland have the same terminal SNP, of relatively modern origin. Making it much older than the Thirty Years' War would stretch our limited understanding of a mutation rate.

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  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    Many things may not be as you think:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...=1#post1323686
    What exactly do you refer to? I see nothing in the link that contradicts what I wrote. Please note Im writing about the coastal areas of Mecklenburg and Pomerania. The more intense old-German settlement is also indicated by village names which ends with -hagen. What I wrote is not disputed to my knowledge.

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    What exactly do you refer to?
    I referd to your statement that Slavs didn’t have an iron plough:

    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    The coastal areas of Mecklenburg and Pomerania experienced more old-German settlement than the inner land. This is because of the heavy and good soils there. In spite of they are good, the Slavs could not really exploate them because there was needed an iron plow, which they did not have available, but the old-Germans.
    In the given link the opposite views were presented i.e. that heavy iron plough was introduced by Slavs:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...=1#post1323686

    Moreover it looks like Tollense Valley Bronze Age warriors were very close relatives of modern-day Slavs:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/1...-warriors.html

    I don’t want to go into R1a – R1b debate and Slavic links with probably Indo-Slavonic Late Sredny Stog Dereivka culture and related Corded Ware Culture as we are waiting for more data:

    https://s7.postimg.org/jhiotcuop/screenshot_308.png


    My statement : “Many things may not be as you think” is the expectation that the history of Germanic and Slavic people as tought in your schools may change with new data and new facts.
    Last edited by bolek; 01-03-2018 at 09:03 PM.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    I referd to your statement that Slavs didn’t have an iron ploug:



    In the given link the opposite views were presented i.e. that heavy iron plough was introduced by Slavs:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...=1#post1323686

    Moreover it looks like Tollense Valley Bronze Age warriors were very close relatives of modern-day Slavs:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/1...-warriors.html

    I don’t want to go into R1a – R1b debate and Slavic links with probably Indo-Slavonic Late Sredny Stog Dereivka culture and related Corded Ware Culture as we are waiting for more data:

    https://s7.postimg.org/jhiotcuop/screenshot_308.png


    My statement : “Many things may not be as you think” is the expectation that the history of Germanic and Slavic people as tought in your schools may change with new data and new facts.
    I wrote about the Slavs in Mecklenburg and Pomerania, they did not have the heavy iron plow for cultivating the more heavy coastal soils. What you refer to is a statement about the south Slavs having invented the iron plow. I dont know if they did, but given they did, that does not touch what I said. Or do you conclude the Slavs in Mecklenburg and Pomerania also had the heavy iron plow, when German colonisation began?

    I did not state any opinion about Tollensetal warriors, nor about R1a/R1b subjects.

    As your statement “Many things may not be as you think” is motivated by "the expectation that the history of Germanic and Slavic people as tought in your schools may change with new data and new facts." I cannot see why this should apply more to me than to you (or anyone else). I guess "new data and new facts" will be new for you too.

    For fun: One of a number of Tollensetal battle skulls I could have a look at and make a photo of. This is the most "booney" one: https://imgur.com/a/NaJvn
    Last edited by rothaer; 01-03-2018 at 09:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    For fun: One of a number of Tollensetal battle skulls I could have a look at and make a photo of. This is the most "booney" one: https://imgur.com/a/NaJvn
    There are on public exhibition? Or you are some sort of scientists who has access?

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    Tomenable, or somebody from over that way -- do Kashubians enter this discussion in any way?
    Kashubian samples are included in "Pomerelia", together with other Pomerelian samples (for example Kociewie).

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  12. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    There are on public exhibition? Or you are some sort of scientists who has access?
    Just two or three skulls are on exhibition, not these I could have a look at. After I heard the skulls were not yet typologically classified, because that is not any longer usual, I had to make some effort to convince the responsible individual to give me access. I even wrote down a theory about the lower Oder river changing flow direction (sic) and how the unexpected and important road at the battle site, which crossed the Tollense river at a today very remote region probably was motivated. It could be determined the wooden construction of this road in the swampy Tollense valley area had been permanently maintained for a period of 600 years prior to the battle. I consider this breathtaking for the bronze age.

    Now, back to the skulls. When finding very ancient skulls, you usually have one or two. Then scientists regulary said, oh, this type of men lived there at that time. But it remained uncertain to which degree a found skull was representative and how the variation was. The very unusual opportunity in this case is to have abt. 30 very well preserved skulls from the same location and the same time. Also, warriors can be expected to not just be from a certain ruling family in a distinguished burial, but recruited also from ordinary people. I can say the variations of skull forms is surprisingly big, so earlier conclusions, based on the presumption, people ought to be rather uniform, today seems to me questionable.

    Scientist? Say, Im an interested layman. I do not earn my money with this.
    Last edited by rothaer; 01-04-2018 at 06:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    Just two or three skulls are on exhibition, not these I could have a look at. After I heard the skulls were not yet typologically classified, because that is not any longer usual, I had to make some effort to convince the responsible individual to give me access. I even wrote down a theory about the lower Oder river changing flow direction (sic) and how the unexpected and important road at the battle site, which crossed the Tollense river at a today very remote region probably was motivated. It could be determined the wooden construction of this road in the swampy Tollense valley area had been permanently maintained for a period of 600 years prior to the battle. I consider this breathtaking for the bronze age.

    Now, back to the skulls. When finding very ancient skulls, you usually have one or two. Then scientists regulary said, oh, this type of men lived there at that time. But it remained uncertain to which degree a found skull was representative and how the variation was. The very unusual opportunity in this case is to have abt. 30 very well preserved skulls from the same location and the same time. Also, warriors can be expected to not just be from a certain ruling family in a distinguished burial, but recruited also from ordinary people. I can say the variations of skull forms is surprisingly big, so earlier conclusions, based on the presumption, people ought to be rather uniform, today seems to me questionable.

    Scientist? Say, Im an interested layman. I do not earn my money with this.
    Did you make more photo? Your impression was they were dolicho or brachycephalic? Wide on narrow-faced?

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