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Thread: West Slavs vs. East Germans: genetic comparison

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    Did you make more photo? Your impression was they were dolicho or brachycephalic? Wide on narrow-faced?
    Your question illustrates what I mean, because it presupposes the skulls have a certain manner in common. (But I would have asked the same btw.) My primary impression is they are stunning different (to my expectation) and all of your mentioned attributes are represented. But to put it in words: Iīd say there are dinarid and faelid forms, lesser alpinid and nordid forms. But most do not fit to these types proper anyhow. I give 4 front pics showing variability, beginning with the already mentioned booney one.

    https://imgur.com/a/ziQ2k
    https://imgur.com/a/WoQHp
    https://imgur.com/a/Fo5h6
    https://imgur.com/a/ub5GU

    Then in half profile or profile you have such different types, but NONE of these is a lonesome outlayer:

    https://imgur.com/a/QFBUP
    https://imgur.com/a/GCYWk
    https://imgur.com/a/3pwF6
    https://imgur.com/a/rQLSg
    Last edited by rothaer; 01-04-2018 at 10:24 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Half profiles are in the same order as frontal view?

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    Half profiles are in the same order as frontal view?
    No, other skulls (I think all) which I selected to best depict variability imo.
    Last edited by rothaer; 01-04-2018 at 11:38 PM.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    Your question illustrates what I mean, because it presupposes the skulls have a certain manner in common. (But I would have asked the same btw.) My primary impression is they are stunning different (to my expectation) and all of your mentioned attributes are represented. But to put it in words: Iīd say there are dinarid and faelid forms, lesser alpinid and nordid forms. But most do not fit to these types proper anyhow. I give 4 front pics showing variability, beginning with the already mentioned booney one.

    https://imgur.com/a/ziQ2k
    https://imgur.com/a/WoQHp
    https://imgur.com/a/Fo5h6
    https://imgur.com/a/ub5GU
    Thank you very much for such interesting information, i'm not new in physical anthropology, but rarely delt with skulls, am i assuming the classification right? If so it was indeed a diverse bunch.

    https://imgur.com/a/ziQ2k - Faelid?
    https://imgur.com/a/WoQHp - Alpine?
    https://imgur.com/a/Fo5h6 - Nordic?
    https://imgur.com/a/ub5GU - Dinaric?

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roaring View Post
    Thank you very much for such interesting information, i'm not new in physical anthropology, but rarely delt with skulls, am i assuming the classification right? If so it was indeed a diverse bunch.

    https://imgur.com/a/ziQ2k - Faelid?
    https://imgur.com/a/WoQHp - Alpine?
    https://imgur.com/a/Fo5h6 - Nordic?
    https://imgur.com/a/ub5GU - Dinaric?
    Well, these are just the front views so you canīt see all what you would need for classification.
    - Regarding the first, the profile view is also posted (the first singular posted pic) Iīd say faelid with Borreby influence.
    - The second is to "booney" for alpinid and also the cheek bones at alpinid are not that pronounced. Iīd actually regard that as most close to east baltid.
    - third could be whatever nordid, dinarid or mediterranid in that solely frontal view.
    - the forth is to me indeterminable in common terminology.

    One in the here not quoted profile views is very dinarid and another has a nose which can only be described as dinarid. And btw, out of 24 I could not find a single skull pronounced nordid.

    Regarding the found skeletons it has to be mentioned, they were - except a few which seem to have come to lay in deep water and were seemingly not accessible - all pillaged and partly put together on heaps. Itīs quite nothing known about bronze age manners to treat fallen warriors, own or enemy. Also regarding own deads it is unknown if dying in combat was regarded honorable or maybe - in contrary - shameful. Having all uncertainties in mind one can say, there is a somewhat founded speculation the pillaged ones are all from one conflict party and from the party losing control of the battle field. Unfortunately I could not get the information if any of the well preserved skulls did belong to non-pillaged skeletons. (I could socially not demand things making notable efforts necessary.)
    Last edited by rothaer; 01-05-2018 at 12:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post

    Then in half profile or profile you have such different types, but NONE of these is a lonesome outlayer:

    https://imgur.com/a/QFBUP
    https://imgur.com/a/GCYWk
    https://imgur.com/a/3pwF6
    https://imgur.com/a/rQLSg
    Ok my part

    First, I'm nearly sure Dinaric (steep occiput, long face, narrow prominent nose, high orbits).

    Second Nordo-Cromagnoid mix / Faelid (nose look narrow, forehead is receding in Nordid manner but has strong browridges)

    Third Keltic-Nordic (very low head, very prominent nose)?

    Fourth reminds me skull of Subnordic type (according to Polish Anthropological School)


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    If you are able to find measurements of the skulls, I can make PCA with Slavic and Germanic for comparison.

  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    Ok my part

    First, I'm nearly sure Dinaric (steep occiput, long face, narrow prominent nose, high orbits).

    Second Nordo-Cromagnoid mix / Faelid (nose look narrow, forehead is receding in Nordid manner but has strong browridges)

    Third Keltic-Nordic (very low head, very prominent nose)?

    Fourth reminds me skull of Subnordic type (according to Polish Anthropological School)

    I orientate at Günther terminolgy. He is one of them following the principle to just assume racial types not overlapping with each other in traits. This is the attempt, to break down plurality of nature into principal components, out of whichīs combination all appearences should be able to explain. Thatīs the idea however. I consider it a meaningful approach. Itīs basically the same approach when admixture components are assumed in an calculator. And this demonstrates the assumed components are not given by nature and may be be chosen in different ways. But important is, there is no overlapping within a particular calculator. Imo this is violated by the assumption of subnordid as a component of itīs own. But I know there is an almost indifinte number of named types around. These types might be assumed, ok, but this is then a completely different approach to this material. Itīs a descriptive only approach (calling something green), while the first mentioned approach, trying to break down into principal components would say no, green is just a combination of yellow and blue.

    Back to the skulls. I agree with your description, but the third was the one I regarded having a dinarid nose.

    Subnordid is a rather "average" combination and yes, I then would even say 50% of these skulls are about subnordid, 30% are about dinarid and 20% are about robuster forms in direction of faelid and east baltid.

    You maybe would agree to here are 4 more "subnordid"

    https://imgur.com/a/6wCUp
    https://imgur.com/a/64UlN
    https://imgur.com/a/d6Je7
    https://imgur.com/a/RsnOl


    and here 3 more in direction of dinarid.

    https://imgur.com/a/InjfG
    https://imgur.com/a/aKSP1
    https://imgur.com/a/nzPjl

    My „upload energy“ is now somewhat exhausted... ;-)

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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    If you are able to find measurements of the skulls, I can make PCA with Slavic and Germanic for comparison.
    I donīt have, sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    I orientate at Günther terminolgy. He is one of them following the principle to just assume racial types not overlapping with each other in traits. This is the attempt, to break down plurality of nature into principal components, out of whichīs combination all appearences should be able to explain. Thatīs the idea however. I consider it a meaningful approach. Itīs basically the same approach when admixture components are assumed in an calculator. And this demonstrates the assumed components are not given by nature and may be be chosen in different ways. But important is, there is no overlapping within a particular calculator. Imo this is violated by the assumption of subnordid as a component of itīs own. But I know there is an almost indifinte number of named types around. These types might be assumed, ok, but this is then a completely different approach to this material. Itīs a descriptive only approach (calling something green), while the first mentioned approach, trying to break down into principal components would say no, green is just a combination of yellow and blue.

    Back to the skulls. I agree with your description, but the third was the one I regarded having a dinarid nose.

    Subnordid is a rather "average" combination and yes, I then would even say 50% of these skulls are about subnordid, 30% are about dinarid and 20% are about robuster forms in direction of faelid and east baltid.

    You maybe would agree to here are 4 more "subnordid"

    https://imgur.com/a/6wCUp
    https://imgur.com/a/64UlN
    https://imgur.com/a/d6Je7
    https://imgur.com/a/RsnOl


    and here 3 more in direction of dinarid.

    https://imgur.com/a/InjfG
    https://imgur.com/a/aKSP1
    https://imgur.com/a/nzPjl

    My „upload energy“ is now somewhat exhausted... ;-)
    Yes, I agree. "Subnordid" has rather short face, lack of bony exaggerations (which be CM traits), but the vault isn't very short / globular in Alpine fashion.
    Supposed Dinarics are certianly similar to each other and has this characteristic high and sguare vault, long and prominent nose. Also all have deep fossa canina between maxilla and zygomatic arches (it influences Dinaric/Armenoid facial dynamics).

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