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Thread: Gujarati Muslim Results

  1. #11
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    Judging by the K36 I don't think your friend has Arabian ancestry (Gulf Arabs/Yemeni) but the Northern Middle East could be a very good candidate.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    Judging by the K36 I don't think your friend has Arabian ancestry (Gulf Arabs/Yemeni) but the Northern Middle East could be a very good candidate.
    No human being scores 100% of the Arabian component of Eurogenes K36. Pure Arabians score a mix of the Arabian + Near East (+some Caucasian and East Med.). So looking at the history of South Asia Arabian ancestry is very possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    A few maybe but I doubt it is discernible.
    The reason I say that is the results from Maldive which was supposed to be a spot of Arab settlements showed not one J1 or E in a (albeit small) sample-set.
    They found 4 Q1a and a couple of A but not one J1 or E! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...0058-SD10.xlsx
    To continue this point - Kerala has been trading with the Arabs for millenia, the most striking thing you'll notice about Kerala is how Arabized it is vs Turco-Persian Islam in Indo-Aryan SA - there is no such thing as Shi'a in Kerala and most Muslims are Shafi'i vs Hanafi in Indo-Aryan SA

    Genetic signal in Muslims however is negligible - only established families with Arab lineage like the Thangals who occupy special religious authority would have any ancestry that is significant

    Baruch/Barygaza, Karachi, Calicut and Muziris were all historical ports though most West Asian ancestry there would go back to settlers rather than slowly assimilated traders who took local wives
    Last edited by bmoney; 01-01-2018 at 02:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Very possible, but to be sure you would have check a Broach 'Hindu.' As you have mentioned Broach was trading town. It had significant outside influence. It had a Persian settlement close by at Nausari (some Parsis even think that that is Persian name!) as well as significant Greek presence within town.

    That was one of the reasons I had speculated that the "Greek" or "Iranian" or "Levantine" pilgrims found at Roopkund may have been Broach 'Hindu' Gurjars.
    "If the Greek and Levantine affinity pans out, it may point to Broach/Barygaza. I doubt Reich would say what is in the abstract unless there is good evidence."
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post308433

    As far as most of modern Gujarat goes, it has two distinct types of populations - one is very Indic (near 100%) and one with discernible steppe influence (east asiatic + steppe). West Asian influence is there in the Kutch areas which are more akin to Sindh.
    Is it true that Gujarat was named after the Gujjars

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    Quote Originally Posted by mephisto View Post
    No human being scores 100% of the Arabian component of Eurogenes K36. Pure Arabians score a mix of the Arabian + Near East (+some Caucasian and East Med.). So looking at the history of South Asia Arabian ancestry is very possible.
    Yes I know Muslims whether "Arab" (from various regions),Persian,Turks, and E.Africans (Afro-Asiatic & Bantu speakers) had arrived in South Asia.Heck there was even a Somali Sultan of the Maldives when Ibn Batuta visited the region


    Anyways I only made that comment since I have seen some results from the Arabian Peninsula.

    Saudi #1
    Arabian 61.10
    East_Med 8.47
    Near_Eastern 22.60
    North_African 2.96
    Northeast_African 4.87

    Saudi #2

    Arabian 62.11
    East_Med 6.36
    Near_Eastern 25.97
    North_African 1.80
    Northeast_African 3.76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    Yeah, definitely agree that it would be more recent admixture than the formative populations.

    I find his oracles really interesting when using Gujaratis. Not just that he's less ASI shifted, but the SW Asian/ENF component.

    7 76.9% gujarati (harappa) + 23.1% iraq-jew (behar) @ 1.95

    5 59.7% GujaratiC (Gujarat) + 40.3% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 2.74



    Well documented that Arab and Iranian traders settled along the coast line. Interestingly Bharuch is actually quite a fair bit east of the Rann of Kutch and the traditional memon areas.

    His background is Sunni Muslim.
    He looks Iranian admixed. I've seen a Pakistani sayed (rizvi) with almost identical results. There are many non strict shia Iranian(especially in the pre revolution era) and many Sunni Iranians as well. He could be part larestani(largely Sunni Persian sub group in southern Iran, known for being traders and seafarers).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Is it true that Gujarat was named after the Gujjars
    Yes. The Gurjars were from Broach area and thus Gujarat.
    The modern Gujarat encompasses a larger region including Abhira and Saurashtra.
    "Saurashtra, Gurjara, Abhira ... The first division extended from Hingula, or Hinglaj, in the great western Run, to Jambuka, or Jambu- sir, on the Narbada. From hence to the Tapi, or Tapti river, was Gurjara ; and from this, southwards to Devagarh, the country was called Abhira, or the region of Shepherds"
    The Political and Statistical History of Gujarát
    ʻAlī Muḥammad Ḵh̲āṉ
    https://books.google.com/books?id=ZHlCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA8

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    My bet is that Rakhigarhi will resemble the former very strongly

    ...
    I agree. Though IMO that 100% is due to admixture being unable to unresolve fully to steppe vs. from steppe. So the east asian is key as that confirms from steppe for a portion of the Gujaratis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    Your friend has clear non-indigenous West Asian/South West-Asian admixture that is lacking in the majority of South Asians (including Muslims). When I say non-indigenous, I mean it is recent and not from Neolithic famers or the Steppe.

    I can't be certain but like Monkey suggested, your friend is likely of Khoja/Shiekh/Lohana background, Muslim Bohra or perhaps a Muslim Patel. There are probably a few other Muslim Gujarati backgrounds they could be from as well. Here are some of the Harappa Muslim Gujarati participant ID's.

    HRP0213 - Gujarati Khoja Shiekh
    HRP0221 - 1/2 Gujarati Khoja + 1/2 Yemeni
    HRP0265 - Gujarati Patel Muslim
    HRP0294 - Gujarati Sunni Vohra Surti
    HRP0265 is me and it is very likely I am from the same group as your friend (I know because we are from Bharuch). Basically we farm most of the land around the city and I dont think other types of muslims live there.

    I know I have some middle eastern ancestry because my Y-DNA HG is J1. However, 23andme says my South Asian ancestry is 95%+ so I consider myself South Asian. Relatives on 23andme show some J1, some R1 and H (n=5).

    We have quite a distinct phenotype and I have often been able to single out people of my community from other South Asians (Pakistanis, Sikhs etc). In general though I think we look most similar to Punjabies or Pahari types (light skin, slim build, very long and priminent noses lol). We look very different to Memons, Khojas, and Surties. I would say from looking at photos we look most similar to Pahari types or even Gujars.

    The most interesting aspect is our language. We speak Gujarati but we do replace initial S with H, turn aa into o and also use a term 'owe' to say 'yes', which I noticed is similar to the Punjabi aaho. In these 3 things we are quite distinct from mainstream gujaratis (and most other gujarati muslims).

    s->h and aa->o are actually the main differences between IA and Iranian especially between Rigvedic and Avestan. However, I think these pronounciations also exist in different Indo-Aryan dialects, I have heard punjabes do s->h sometmes but I am not sure if anyone does aa->o in Indo-Aryan. I do not think these factors demonstrate an Iranian origin but rather that they reflect some Northern Indo Aryan origin.

    Apparantly it says in some hindu book that some 'Sidra Rudra Brahmins' came to Gujarat and those of them who owned land converted to Islam and joined the Muslim Patel community. So I think we are a mix of people with (somewhat) similar but different backgrounds.

    It would be cool if anyone can provide any more information here, I think the linguistic stuff is a clue. Otherwise it is a bit sad because we so different to average gujaratis but have no idea of our background (unlike most other muslim gujarati communities).

    I just consider myself Northern Indo Aryan

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  17. #20
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    Gujarati Sunni Bohra

    I'm from the disapora of the Bharuchi Sunni Bohra / Muslim Patel community living in the West. I often get confused for being Arab and I've suspected that may be due to some middle eastern ancestry.

    Some interesting links regarding the Bharuchi Sunni Bohra/Vohra/Vahora/Bohora I've come across.

    Publications from Bharuchi Muslims in Britain regarding the community. (I can't post normal links yet with a new account)
    mahek.co.uk/gwg/publications/bharuchi-vahora-patel

    This one is regarding the origin of the community.
    mahek.co.uk/gwg/publications/bharuchi-vahora-patel/origin/
    Every Bharuchi Sunni Muslim family has the Patel surname. Having said that, it should be noted that some Bharuchi Sunni Muslim families have other surnames as well, indicating either occupations (Munshi, Talati, Ughratdar) or residence (Ghantiwala, Padarwala, Vadiwala).
    General info about the community pre-independence. Also dicusses references to the community during the British Raj
    mahek.co.uk/gwg/publications/bharuchi-vahora-patel/pre-independence-era/

    Some interesting stuff from the gazetteers of Sir James Macnabb Campbell

    References in the 1899 Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency: Gujarát population. At least these are the references where OCR correctly recognized the word "Bohora". We are looking for references to the peasant/cultivating Sunni Bohoras, not the trading Duadi Shia Bohoras.
    books.google.com/books?id=LQsIAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA24&dq=bohora&hl=en&sa=X &ved=0ahUKEwjaucXE2IjaAhVQ-mMKHa-3AlcQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=bohora&f=false

    Regarding everyone who studies the Bharuchi Sunni Bohoras dwelling on their distinctive appearance.
    All who have studied the Broach peasant Bohoras have dwelt on their peculiar appearance and character. But what the non Gujarat element is has not yet been settled. They have been called Arabian Jews and some among the cultivators claim descent from Ishmael the son of Abraham.
    A lot of Sunni Bohras can point out the specific caste their ancestors converted came from. Some Sunni Bohra/Muslim Patel converts from the higher castes refuse to allow their daugters to marry men of lower castes.
    Besides under Muzaffar Shah (AD 1380 1413) when they became a separate body the Sunni Bohoras probably received additions both from Hindus and perhaps from the ranks of the Shiah Bohoras... Many peasant Bohoras know to what Hindu caste their forefathers belonged. A large number settled in Sarod in Broach claim descent from Mancharim, a Brahman of Morvi in Kathiawar who was converted by Mahmud Begada. The present head of the family thirteenth in descent from the first convert. Some Bohoras in Dhandhuka, Kavi, and Jambusar are Ravalias. Some in Bharkodra are Vanias. some in Devdi are Rajputs. some in Tankaria are Bhatias or Lohanas. Some in Khanpur are Dheds. some in Achodi are Chamars. some in Mora are Khatris and some in Akola are Mod Ghanchis. The distinction is still (AD 1898) kept up, those who claim high caste descent refuse to give their daughters to lower class Bohoras. (KB Fazl Lutfullah 14th July 1878)
    Some ancestry may be from Marvadi.
    Captain Ovans in one of the note books of the first Broach Survey AD 1818 gives an account which he had from the Tankaria Bohoras and of the truth of which he was confident. According to this account the Emperor Jahangir AD 1618 finding some Marvadi prisoners of war enslaved by a Hindu chief gave them their freedom To how their gratitude the Marvadi became Muhammadans and in reward were settled in waste lands in Gujarat. Some of the Kaira cultivating Bohoras give almost the same account and though these Marvadi converts cannot have been the original Bohoras they may at one time have been a distinct class... As far as features and manners go a Marvadi element would very well explain the Broach Bohora's special looks and ways. This Marvadi strain may be a traceof the special Gurjjara settlement in Broach (AD 530 808) The following are some of the village Bohora surnames Abhu Bulat Bhabha Bobat Dhalej Doha Dokrat Ghatu Goga Godaria Hidat Harif Jeena Mayalt Mamsa Mehtar Oala Paravia Rangeda Taravia Turava Tiniol Vaona Vawra Wankar
    Origin of the word Bohra is likely from Hindu Bohras or from the gujarati word "vohoru" meaning "to trade" being used for all un-armed castes converting to Islam.
    The origin of the name Bohora is doubtful It is generally traced to the class of Hindu Bohora's... But as there is no certain record of Hindu Bohora's in Gujarat it seems better to derive the word from the Gujar&i "vohorvu" "to trade" the occupation followed by the first Hindu converts to Islam. What makes the origin of the word more doubtful is that neither at present nor under the Musalman rulers of Gujarat is its use limited to traders or to converts of the special Ismaili form of faith
    They are the descendants of Hindu converts with some considerable unknown foreign element.
    If the account of the Daudi or trading Bohoras is correct these peasant Bohoras are chiefly the descendants of Hindu converts of the unarmed castes who adopted Islam at the close of the fourteenth and during the fifteenth centuries. In addition to this their look and manner would at least in Broach seem to show that they include some considerable foreign element.
    Bharuchi Sunni Bohras do not marry Surti Sunni Bohras
    Among the various classes and villages their difference of origin continues the ground of social distinctions. The villagers north of the Narmada do not marry with those to the south. In Dhandhuka some families claiming the title of Desai hold aloof from the common Bohora villagers and in several parts of Broach houses of Brahman or Rajput descent though they allow their sons to marry with them refuse to give their daughters to families whose forefathers were Kolis Ravalias or Dheds
    Appearance
    The men have strong burly muscular frames with fair complexions and high regular features They shave the head and wear the beard long and full The women are tall stout and fair with good features.
    Regarding their nature
    When a Bohora and a Hindu meet in a Broach road the Bohora's cart has seldom to force its way out of the ruts. So special a position have the Bohoras that they locally known as sodjar-lok [soldier people] or soldiers, the common Hindu expression for the rougher class of Europeans.
    They are independent and overbearing, inclined to be turbulent and at times commit most cruel crimes. Though honest and straightforward Ahmedabad they have in Broach a bad name for deceit and craft They are most skilful and hardworking husbandmen and though liberal and hospitable are sober and thrifty. Though much poorer than at close of the American war AD 1865 cultivating Bohoras as a class are well to do. The Randir and Surat Bohoras have of late become rich and prosperous in trading with Burma and East Africa
    Hindu traditions are still common
    At death their women beat the breast and wail like Hindus

    References in the 1877 gazetteer, Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency: Surat and Broach
    books.google.com/books?id=uRpBAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA377&lpg=PA377&dq=most+m ysterious+are+the+bohoras&source=bl&ots=8qaGkmk7jz &sig=okbBfnYV6R0ZGgArL0OrUWJqgxo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0a hUKEwjW5qvm2YjaAhUUWGMKHeekDTEQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage& q=bohoras&f=false

    Some useful quotes:
    With the exception of the Bohoras who are a well to do class the Broach Musalmans are for the most part in a depressed condition.
    The Musalmans include two classes distinct in origin though now considerably mixed by intermarriage Musalman immigrants and local converts to Islam. Among the Musalmans whose origin is traced to Hindu converts the important are the Bohoras.
    [Bohoras] large body includes two main classes distinct from each other in occupation and in religion. Of these the one generally engaged trade and living in towns are most of them Ismaili Shias in religion and the other belonging to the Sunni community are a people employed almost entirely in tilling the fields. The actual strength of each of these classes [is unkown] But in the Broach district the pedlar Bohoras are a very small body to be found only in the towns of Breach and Jambusar while the peasants form a large section of the population and are distributed every part of the district.
    The peasant Bohoras are a very hardworking intelligent independent and somewhat turbulent body men In language and habits they resemble the Kanbi and Hindus but are distinguishable from Hindus by their beard as as by apeculiar cast of countenance. At the same time while professing the faith of Islam they do not intermarry with other Musalmans
    These two classes of Bohoras are among the most interesting of the Musalmans of Gujarat, not only from their peculiar history, many points in which do not seem to be free from mystery, but because in contrast to the generally depressed state of the Musalman population, the Bohoras, Whether as traders or as cultivators among the most prosperous communities of Gujarat.
    The two classes of the Breach people most addicted to the crime of murder are the cultivating Bohoras and the Kolis. Some of these murders are marked with circumstances of special cruelty
    For converts of the trading class the word Bohora was in use and this they extended to converts from all the unarmed castes Brahmans husbandmen and craftsmen
    Another explanation of the use of the word Bohora both to Shiah traders and to Sunni villagers is that at one time all were Shias of the Daudi form of faith and... were converted to the orthodox faith by tome of the early Gujarat kings But there is very little to support this theory
    Wiki section from the Gujarati Muslims article regarding Bharuchi / Surti muslims has some interesting references regarding the history of Persian/Arab merchants in India.
    wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarati_Muslims#/Bharuchi_and_Surti_Muslims

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