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Thread: Gujarati Muslim Results

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuslimPatel123 View Post
    I'm from the disapora of the Bharuchi Sunni Bohra / Muslim Patel community living in the West. I often get confused for being Arab and I've suspected that may be due to some middle eastern ancestry.

    Some interesting links regarding the Bharuchi Sunni Bohra/Vohra/Vahora/Bohora I've come across.

    Publications from Bharuchi Muslims in Britain regarding the community. (I can't post normal links yet with a new account)
    mahek.co.uk/gwg/publications/bharuchi-vahora-patel

    This one is regarding the origin of the community.
    mahek.co.uk/gwg/publications/bharuchi-vahora-patel/origin/


    General info about the community pre-independence. Also dicusses references to the community during the British Raj
    mahek.co.uk/gwg/publications/bharuchi-vahora-patel/pre-independence-era/

    Some interesting stuff from the gazetteers of Sir James Macnabb Campbell

    References in the 1899 Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency: Gujarát population. At least these are the references where OCR correctly recognized the word "Bohora". We are looking for references to the peasant/cultivating Sunni Bohoras, not the trading Duadi Shia Bohoras.
    books.google.com/books?id=LQsIAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA24&dq=bohora&hl=en&sa=X &ved=0ahUKEwjaucXE2IjaAhVQ-mMKHa-3AlcQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=bohora&f=false

    Regarding everyone who studies the Bharuchi Sunni Bohoras dwelling on their distinctive appearance.


    A lot of Sunni Bohras can point out the specific caste their ancestors converted came from. Some Sunni Bohra/Muslim Patel converts from the higher castes refuse to allow their daugters to marry men of lower castes.


    Some ancestry may be from Marvadi.


    Origin of the word Bohra is likely from Hindu Bohras or from the gujarati word "vohoru" meaning "to trade" being used for all un-armed castes converting to Islam.


    They are the descendants of Hindu converts with some considerable unknown foreign element.


    Bharuchi Sunni Bohras do not marry Surti Sunni Bohras


    Appearance


    Regarding their nature



    Hindu traditions are still common



    References in the 1877 gazetteer, Gazetteer of the Bombay Presidency: Surat and Broach
    books.google.com/books?id=uRpBAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA377&lpg=PA377&dq=most+m ysterious+are+the+bohoras&source=bl&ots=8qaGkmk7jz &sig=okbBfnYV6R0ZGgArL0OrUWJqgxo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0a hUKEwjW5qvm2YjaAhUUWGMKHeekDTEQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage& q=bohoras&f=false

    Some useful quotes:









    Wiki section from the Gujarati Muslims article regarding Bharuchi / Surti muslims has some interesting references regarding the history of Persian/Arab merchants in India.
    wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarati_Muslims#/Bharuchi_and_Surti_Muslims


    Do you guys belong to 'Gols' (marriage circles) like Hindu Patels?

  2. #22
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    My DNA Land results are somewhat different from Reza's friend

    imgur.com/a/9Nc6dGo

    MuslimPatel123
    Gujarati (South Asian) 2.7
    Dravidian (South Asian) 51
    Central Indoeuropean (Caucasian) 20
    Indo-Iranian (Central Asian) 12
    Indus Valley (Central Asian) 5.2
    Finnish (Northeast European) 4.1
    South/Central European (South European) 2.4
    Balkan (South European) 1
    Ambiguous 1.3


    --------

    Harappa results are pretty similar to the other bharuchi/surti muslim samples.

    HarrapaDNA MuslimPatel123 (Bharuchi Sunni Bohra) mzp1/HRP0265 (Bharuchi Muslim Patel) Reza's friend (Bharuchi Sunni Muslim) HRP0294 (Surti Sunni Bohra)
    S-Indian 34.56 33.69 35.44 34.73
    Baloch 32.4 32.22 33.35 33.5
    Caucasian 16.04 13.18 14.27 13.21
    NE-Euro 4.81 3.41 4.46 4.92
    SE-Asian 0.53 1.95 0 0.36
    Siberian 1.61 0 1.83 1.23
    NE-Asian 0.7 0 0.33 2.02
    Papuan 1.15 1.64 0.1 1.47
    American 0.73 1.86 0.45 0.98
    Beringian 0 2.43 0.33 0.32
    Mediterranean 1.78 2.62 2.98 2.1
    SW-Asian 5.44 5.54 5.92 4.33
    San 0 0.69 0 0
    E-African 0 0.77 0.01 0.84
    Pygmy 0.25 0 0.52 0
    W-African 0 0 0 0

    The results, especially the elevated Caucasian and SW asian are very different than the Hindu Patels of similar caste/occupational status (harappadna.org/2013/07/gujaratis-harappaworld-admixture/)

    My Harappa Orcale

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 5.26
    2 up-muslim (harappa) 6.93
    3 kashmiri (harappa) 8.45
    4 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 8.96
    5 bene-israel-jew (behar) 9.02
    6 punjabi (harappa) 9.19
    7 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 9.73
    8 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 10.49
    9 cochin-jew (behar) 10.61
    10 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 11.27

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 76.30% meghawal (reich) 23.70% georgia-jew (behar) 1.54
    2 74.40% maharashtrian (harappa) 25.60% uzbekistan-jew (behar) 1.57
    3 68.70% rajasthani (harappa) 31.30% iranian (behar) 1.59
    4 69.80% rajasthani (harappa) 30.20% kurd (harappa) 1.6
    5 75.70% meghawal (reich) 24.30% iranian-jew (behar) 1.64
    6 76.20% meghawal (reich) 23.80% azerbaijan-jew (behar) 1.64
    7 75.80% meghawal (reich) 24.20% assyrian (harappa) 1.64
    8 74% meghawal (reich) 26% uzbekistan-jew (behar) 1.78
    9 66.90% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 33.10% kurd (harappa) 1.79
    10 76.20% maharashtrian (harappa) 23.80% assyrian (harappa) 1.8
    11 76.10% maharashtrian (harappa) 23.90% iranian-jew (behar) 1.8
    12 68.10% ap-brahmin (xing) 31.90% kurd (harappa) 1.81
    13 50.50% bene-israel-jew (behar) 49.50% punjabi (harappa) 1.84
    14 75.60% maharashtrian (harappa) 24.40% iraqi-mandaean (harappa) 1.87
    15 73.40% tn-brahmin (xing) 26.60% uzbekistan-jew (behar) 1.87
    16 75.20% meghawal (reich) 24.80% iraqi-mandaean (harappa) 1.88
    17 76% meghawal (reich) 24% iraq-jew (behar) 1.92
    18 65.80% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 34.20% iranian (behar) 1.92
    19 71.60% maharashtrian (harappa) 28.40% kurd (harappa) 1.95
    20 70.20% kerala-nair (harappa) 29.80% azeri (harappa) 1.96

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Do you guys belong to 'Gols' (marriage circles) like Hindu Patels?
    I know in India people only marry within their specific community, so muslims from Bharuch usually only marry others from Bharuch and muslims from Surat only marry other muslims from Surat. The status of the family definitely matters a lot for marriage within the community and there is a lot of arranged marriage. In the diaspora there are a lot more marriages with muslims from other communities or countries.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuslimPatel123 View Post
    My DNA Land results are somewhat different from Reza's friend

    imgur.com/a/9Nc6dGo

    MuslimPatel123
    Gujarati (South Asian) 2.7
    Dravidian (South Asian) 51
    Central Indoeuropean (Caucasian) 20
    Indo-Iranian (Central Asian) 12
    Indus Valley (Central Asian) 5.2
    Finnish (Northeast European) 4.1
    South/Central European (South European) 2.4
    Balkan (South European) 1
    Ambiguous 1.3


    --------

    Harappa results are pretty similar to the other bharuchi/surti muslim samples.

    HarrapaDNA MuslimPatel123 (Bharuchi Sunni Bohra) mzp1/HRP0265 (Bharuchi Muslim Patel) Reza's friend (Bharuchi Sunni Muslim) HRP0294 (Surti Sunni Bohra)
    S-Indian 34.56 33.69 35.44 34.73
    Baloch 32.4 32.22 33.35 33.5
    Caucasian 16.04 13.18 14.27 13.21
    NE-Euro 4.81 3.41 4.46 4.92
    SE-Asian 0.53 1.95 0 0.36
    Siberian 1.61 0 1.83 1.23
    NE-Asian 0.7 0 0.33 2.02
    Papuan 1.15 1.64 0.1 1.47
    American 0.73 1.86 0.45 0.98
    Beringian 0 2.43 0.33 0.32
    Mediterranean 1.78 2.62 2.98 2.1
    SW-Asian 5.44 5.54 5.92 4.33
    San 0 0.69 0 0
    E-African 0 0.77 0.01 0.84
    Pygmy 0.25 0 0.52 0
    W-African 0 0 0 0

    The results, especially the elevated Caucasian and SW asian are very different than the Hindu Patels of similar caste/occupational status (harappadna.org/2013/07/gujaratis-harappaworld-admixture/)

    My Harappa Orcale

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 5.26
    2 up-muslim (harappa) 6.93
    3 kashmiri (harappa) 8.45
    4 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 8.96
    5 bene-israel-jew (behar) 9.02
    6 punjabi (harappa) 9.19
    7 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 9.73
    8 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 10.49
    9 cochin-jew (behar) 10.61
    10 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 11.27

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 76.30% meghawal (reich) 23.70% georgia-jew (behar) 1.54
    2 74.40% maharashtrian (harappa) 25.60% uzbekistan-jew (behar) 1.57
    3 68.70% rajasthani (harappa) 31.30% iranian (behar) 1.59
    4 69.80% rajasthani (harappa) 30.20% kurd (harappa) 1.6
    5 75.70% meghawal (reich) 24.30% iranian-jew (behar) 1.64
    6 76.20% meghawal (reich) 23.80% azerbaijan-jew (behar) 1.64
    7 75.80% meghawal (reich) 24.20% assyrian (harappa) 1.64
    8 74% meghawal (reich) 26% uzbekistan-jew (behar) 1.78
    9 66.90% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 33.10% kurd (harappa) 1.79
    10 76.20% maharashtrian (harappa) 23.80% assyrian (harappa) 1.8
    11 76.10% maharashtrian (harappa) 23.90% iranian-jew (behar) 1.8
    12 68.10% ap-brahmin (xing) 31.90% kurd (harappa) 1.81
    13 50.50% bene-israel-jew (behar) 49.50% punjabi (harappa) 1.84
    14 75.60% maharashtrian (harappa) 24.40% iraqi-mandaean (harappa) 1.87
    15 73.40% tn-brahmin (xing) 26.60% uzbekistan-jew (behar) 1.87
    16 75.20% meghawal (reich) 24.80% iraqi-mandaean (harappa) 1.88
    17 76% meghawal (reich) 24% iraq-jew (behar) 1.92
    18 65.80% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 34.20% iranian (behar) 1.92
    19 71.60% maharashtrian (harappa) 28.40% kurd (harappa) 1.95
    20 70.20% kerala-nair (harappa) 29.80% azeri (harappa) 1.96
    From what I've seen, Muslim Patels have obvious west asian admixture or they've taken up the Patel title over time. Fascinating group since they score very different from Hindu Patels/Baniyas.
    Deg Teg Fateh - Victory to Charity and Arms

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    From what I've seen, Muslim Patels have obvious west asian admixture or they've taken up the Patel title over time. Fascinating group since they score very different from Hindu Patels/Baniyas.
    Agreed. If we were to presume the Meghawal, Maharashtrian, AP-brahmin, etc. roughly approximate a Hindu Patel (a bit different though from the samples we have), then it would suggest that many Muslim Patels, Bharuchi and Bohra groups have roughly 25-30% West Asian or Near Eastern like admixture. I wonder how recent it is?
    pegasus modeling:

    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    Agreed. If we were to presume the Meghawal, Maharashtrian, AP-brahmin, etc. roughly approximate a Hindu Patel (a bit different though from the samples we have), then it would suggest that many Muslim Patels, Bharuchi and Bohra groups have roughly 25-30% West Asian or Near Eastern like admixture. I wonder how recent it is?
    We shouldn't use the hindu patidar as the source population. Checkout razib's k=4 unsupervised ADMIXTURE here

    docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dM9h5TXdN9mf-GtAS69q5T70zwBH1VS59IW5INKdVxE

    The "Gujarati_Patel" cluster as the K3 component, but I get only ~5.9% on this component. I score 24% on the tamil-like K4 component which is found in Gujurati_ANI_4 and Gujurati_ANI_3.

    Also look at DNA Land's supervised STRUCTURE because it has the patidars as a gujarati source population. Midichlorian, a gujarati patel, scored 100% gujarati on dna land. I only get 2.7% gujarati.

    This means some of the british sources are wrong when they say we are converted from the patidars, at least if they were talking about the kunbi who make up the gujarati patel ref population. Example British source:
    "The handsome Sunni Bohora women of Broach and Cambay, converted descendants of the prevailing caste of Hindu cultivators in the province" - Women of India (gutenberg.org/files/50346/50346-h/50346-h.htm)

    Other calculators do give me Gujarati populations as one of the sources. Example gedrosia k12:
    Code:
    Oracle:
    
    Admix Results (sorted):
    
    #	Population	Percent
    1	S_INDIAN	38.93
    2	BALOCHI	22.21
    3	CAUCASUS	17.19
    4	SINTASHTA_STEPPE_HERDERS	5.57
    5	SW_ASIAN	5.2
    6	EARLY_EUROPEAN_FARMERS	4.32
    7	SE_ASIAN	2.55
    8	INDO_TIBETAN	1.94
    9	SUB_SAHARAN	1.12
    10	E_SIBERIAN	0.49
    11	W_SIBERIAN	0.47
    
    Single Population Sharing:
    
    #	Population (source)	Distance
    1	Nepali	9.7
    2	GujaratiA	12.87
    3	Sindhi	14.59
    4	Pathan	15.43
    5	GujaratiB	16.26
    6	UP_Brahmin	18.64
    7	Punjabi_Sikh	20.69
    8	Kurds_SE	22.24
    9	GujaratiC	22.63
    10	Pashtun_Afghan	25.58
    11	Tajik_Afghan	26.75
    12	Meghawal	27.7
    13	Uzbek_Afghan	28.42
    14	UP_Muslim	28.95
    15	Tharu	29.22
    16	GujaratiD	29.32
    17	UP_Kol	30.36
    18	Tajik_Pomiri	31.13
    19	Kanjar	31.92
    20	Velamas	32.28
    
    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
    
    #	 	Primary Population (source)	Secondary Population (source)	Distance
    1	 	62.7%	GujaratiC	+	37.3%	Iranian		3.73
    2	 	63.3%	GujaratiC	+	36.7%	Kurds_E		3.83
    3	 	70.5%	GujaratiB	+	29.5%	Iranian		4.25
    4	 	62%	GujaratiC	+	38%	Kurds_C		4.25
    5	 	63.4%	GujaratiC	+	36.6%	Kurds_N		4.44
    6	 	73.3%	GujaratiB	+	26.7%	Iraqi_Mandaeans		4.7
    7	 	74.7%	GujaratiB	+	25.3%	Assyrian		4.77
    8	 	71.2%	GujaratiB	+	28.8%	Kurds_E		4.79
    9	 	70.3%	GujaratiB	+	29.7%	Kurds_F		4.85
    10	 	62.4%	GujaratiC	+	37.6%	Kurds_F		4.95
    11	 	71.2%	GujaratiB	+	28.8%	Kurds_N		4.98
    12	 	72.5%	GujaratiB	+	27.5%	Iraqi_Arab_Baghdad		5.02
    13	 	74.4%	GujaratiB	+	25.6%	Iraqi_Jew		5.02
    14	 	73.6%	GujaratiB	+	26.4%	Iraqi_Chaldeans		5.06
    15	 	75.2%	GujaratiB	+	24.8%	Armenian		5.14
    16	 	70.1%	GujaratiB	+	29.9%	Kurds_C		5.17
    17	 	73.9%	GujaratiB	+	26.1%	Turks_Adana		5.3
    18	 	86%	Nepali	+	14%	Jordanian		5.34
    19	 	57.9%	Meghawal	+	42.1%	Iranian		5.38
    20	 	84.8%	Nepali	+	15.2%	Iraqi_Jew		5.38
    
    
    4-oracle
    
    Least-squares method.
    
    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Nepali  10.484727
    2 GujaratiA  13.967200
    3 Sindhi  16.549343
    4 Pathan  17.217762
    5 GujaratiB  18.077738
    6 UP_Brahmin  20.658394
    7 Punjabi_Sikh  23.189722
    8 Kurds_SE  25.074566
    9 GujaratiC  25.455690
    10 Pashtun_Afghan  28.676903
    11 Tajik_Afghan  29.403147
    12 Meghawal  31.157784
    13 Uzbek_Afghan  31.577028
    14 UP_Muslim  32.729668
    15 Tharu  33.026440
    16 GujaratiD  33.056267
    17 UP_Kol  34.320877
    18 Tajik_Pomiri  34.425346
    19 Kanjar  36.106392
    20 Velamas  36.382305
    
    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% GujaratiD +50% Uzbek_Afghan  6.274281
    
    
    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% GujaratiD +25% Kurds_E +25% Uzbek_Afghan  2.394409
    
    
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Gond + GujaratiC + Kurds_E + Kurds_SE  1.822791
    2 Kurds_F + Nihali + Pathan + Sindhi  1.897120
    3 Gond + GujaratiC + Iranian + Kurds_SE  1.975264
    4 AP_Chenchu + GujaratiB + Kurds_E + Kurds_SE  2.053806
    5 AP_Chenchu + GujaratiB + Iranian + Kurds_SE  2.132345
    6 Gond + Kurds_E + Kurds_SE + Meghawal  2.173405
    7 Kurds_N + Nihali + Pathan + Sindhi  2.174695
    8 Nihali + Sindhi + Sindhi + Turks_Adana  2.193975
    9 GujaratiD + Kurds_E + Uzbek_Afghan + Velamas  2.223155
    10 Kurds_E + Kurds_SE + Meghawal + UP_Kol  2.227473
    11 Nihali + Sindhi + Sindhi + Turks_Kayseri  2.245954
    12 Kurds_N + Kurds_SE + Meghawal + UP_Kol  2.250495
    13 GujaratiD + Kurds_E + Kurds_SE + UP_Kol  2.262953
    14 Kurds_N + Nihali + Sindhi + Sindhi  2.281042
    15 Armenian + Nihali + Sindhi + Sindhi  2.286881
    16 Armenian + Nihali + Punjabi_Sikh + Sindhi  2.302339
    17 GujaratiC + Kurds_N + Kurds_SE + Velamas  2.306850
    18 GujaratiC + Iranian + Piramalai + Uzbek_Afghan  2.309430
    19 GujaratiC + Kurds_E + Kurds_SE + UP_Caste  2.311913
    20 GujaratiB + Iranian + Kurds_SE + Nihali  2.319947
    Last edited by MuslimPatel123; 06-30-2018 at 09:05 AM.

  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuslimPatel123 View Post
    We shouldn't use the hindu patidar as the source population. Checkout razib's k=4 unsupervised ADMIXTURE here

    docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dM9h5TXdN9mf-GtAS69q5T70zwBH1VS59IW5INKdVxE

    The "Gujarati_Patel" cluster as the K3 component, but I get only ~5.9% on this component. I score 24% on the tamil-like K4 component which is found in Gujurati_ANI_4 and Gujurati_ANI_3.

    Also look at DNA Land's supervised STRUCTURE because it has the patidars as a gujarati source population. Midichlorian, a gujarati patel, scored 100% gujarati on dna land. I only get 2.7% gujarati.

    This means some of the british sources are wrong when they say we are converted from the patidars, at least if they were talking about the kunbi who make up the gujarati patel ref population. Example British source:
    "The handsome Sunni Bohora women of Broach and Cambay, converted descendants of the prevailing caste of Hindu cultivators in the province" - Women of India (gutenberg.org/files/50346/50346-h/50346-h.htm)

    Other calculators do give me Gujarati populations as one of the sources. Example gedrosia k12:
    Code:
    Oracle:
    
    Admix Results (sorted):
    
    #	Population	Percent
    1	S_INDIAN	38.93
    2	BALOCHI	22.21
    3	CAUCASUS	17.19
    4	SINTASHTA_STEPPE_HERDERS	5.57
    5	SW_ASIAN	5.2
    6	EARLY_EUROPEAN_FARMERS	4.32
    7	SE_ASIAN	2.55
    8	INDO_TIBETAN	1.94
    9	SUB_SAHARAN	1.12
    10	E_SIBERIAN	0.49
    11	W_SIBERIAN	0.47
    
    Single Population Sharing:
    
    #	Population (source)	Distance
    1	Nepali	9.7
    2	GujaratiA	12.87
    3	Sindhi	14.59
    4	Pathan	15.43
    5	GujaratiB	16.26
    6	UP_Brahmin	18.64
    7	Punjabi_Sikh	20.69
    8	Kurds_SE	22.24
    9	GujaratiC	22.63
    10	Pashtun_Afghan	25.58
    11	Tajik_Afghan	26.75
    12	Meghawal	27.7
    13	Uzbek_Afghan	28.42
    14	UP_Muslim	28.95
    15	Tharu	29.22
    16	GujaratiD	29.32
    17	UP_Kol	30.36
    18	Tajik_Pomiri	31.13
    19	Kanjar	31.92
    20	Velamas	32.28
    
    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
    
    #	 	Primary Population (source)	Secondary Population (source)	Distance
    1	 	62.7%	GujaratiC	+	37.3%	Iranian		3.73
    2	 	63.3%	GujaratiC	+	36.7%	Kurds_E		3.83
    3	 	70.5%	GujaratiB	+	29.5%	Iranian		4.25
    4	 	62%	GujaratiC	+	38%	Kurds_C		4.25
    5	 	63.4%	GujaratiC	+	36.6%	Kurds_N		4.44
    6	 	73.3%	GujaratiB	+	26.7%	Iraqi_Mandaeans		4.7
    7	 	74.7%	GujaratiB	+	25.3%	Assyrian		4.77
    8	 	71.2%	GujaratiB	+	28.8%	Kurds_E		4.79
    9	 	70.3%	GujaratiB	+	29.7%	Kurds_F		4.85
    10	 	62.4%	GujaratiC	+	37.6%	Kurds_F		4.95
    11	 	71.2%	GujaratiB	+	28.8%	Kurds_N		4.98
    12	 	72.5%	GujaratiB	+	27.5%	Iraqi_Arab_Baghdad		5.02
    13	 	74.4%	GujaratiB	+	25.6%	Iraqi_Jew		5.02
    14	 	73.6%	GujaratiB	+	26.4%	Iraqi_Chaldeans		5.06
    15	 	75.2%	GujaratiB	+	24.8%	Armenian		5.14
    16	 	70.1%	GujaratiB	+	29.9%	Kurds_C		5.17
    17	 	73.9%	GujaratiB	+	26.1%	Turks_Adana		5.3
    18	 	86%	Nepali	+	14%	Jordanian		5.34
    19	 	57.9%	Meghawal	+	42.1%	Iranian		5.38
    20	 	84.8%	Nepali	+	15.2%	Iraqi_Jew		5.38
    
    
    4-oracle
    
    Least-squares method.
    
    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Nepali  10.484727
    2 GujaratiA  13.967200
    3 Sindhi  16.549343
    4 Pathan  17.217762
    5 GujaratiB  18.077738
    6 UP_Brahmin  20.658394
    7 Punjabi_Sikh  23.189722
    8 Kurds_SE  25.074566
    9 GujaratiC  25.455690
    10 Pashtun_Afghan  28.676903
    11 Tajik_Afghan  29.403147
    12 Meghawal  31.157784
    13 Uzbek_Afghan  31.577028
    14 UP_Muslim  32.729668
    15 Tharu  33.026440
    16 GujaratiD  33.056267
    17 UP_Kol  34.320877
    18 Tajik_Pomiri  34.425346
    19 Kanjar  36.106392
    20 Velamas  36.382305
    
    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% GujaratiD +50% Uzbek_Afghan  6.274281
    
    
    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% GujaratiD +25% Kurds_E +25% Uzbek_Afghan  2.394409
    
    
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Gond + GujaratiC + Kurds_E + Kurds_SE  1.822791
    2 Kurds_F + Nihali + Pathan + Sindhi  1.897120
    3 Gond + GujaratiC + Iranian + Kurds_SE  1.975264
    4 AP_Chenchu + GujaratiB + Kurds_E + Kurds_SE  2.053806
    5 AP_Chenchu + GujaratiB + Iranian + Kurds_SE  2.132345
    6 Gond + Kurds_E + Kurds_SE + Meghawal  2.173405
    7 Kurds_N + Nihali + Pathan + Sindhi  2.174695
    8 Nihali + Sindhi + Sindhi + Turks_Adana  2.193975
    9 GujaratiD + Kurds_E + Uzbek_Afghan + Velamas  2.223155
    10 Kurds_E + Kurds_SE + Meghawal + UP_Kol  2.227473
    11 Nihali + Sindhi + Sindhi + Turks_Kayseri  2.245954
    12 Kurds_N + Kurds_SE + Meghawal + UP_Kol  2.250495
    13 GujaratiD + Kurds_E + Kurds_SE + UP_Kol  2.262953
    14 Kurds_N + Nihali + Sindhi + Sindhi  2.281042
    15 Armenian + Nihali + Sindhi + Sindhi  2.286881
    16 Armenian + Nihali + Punjabi_Sikh + Sindhi  2.302339
    17 GujaratiC + Kurds_N + Kurds_SE + Velamas  2.306850
    18 GujaratiC + Iranian + Piramalai + Uzbek_Afghan  2.309430
    19 GujaratiC + Kurds_E + Kurds_SE + UP_Caste  2.311913
    20 GujaratiB + Iranian + Kurds_SE + Nihali  2.319947
    Fair point but the source population had to be something like Meghawal (reich) or maharashtrian (harappa). Your fits with them + West Asian/Near Eastern pop are super tight.

    These are scores for Meghawal and Maharashtrian on Harappa:

    Meghawal:

    South Indian 45.459%
    Baloch 37.487%
    Caucasian 4.927%
    NE Euro 6.1025%
    SE Asian 0.696%
    Siberian 1.107%
    NE Asian 0.179%
    Papuan 0.81%
    American 0.35%
    Beringian 0.586%
    Mediterranean 0.865%
    SW Asian 1.063%


    Maharashtrian:

    South Indian 46.339%
    Baloch 35.1779%
    Caucasian 5.14539%
    NE Euro 5.3608%
    SE Asian 0.7888%
    Siberian 0.8971%
    NE Asian 1.02239%
    Papuan 1.0572%
    American 0.8129%
    Beringian 0.946968%
    Mediterranean 0.9734%
    SW Asian 0.9721%


    midichlorian's Harappa:

    1 S-Indian 51.23
    2 Baloch 38.39
    3 Caucasian 4.87
    4 American 2.54
    5 Mediterranean 1.71
    6 SW-Asian 1.25

    midichlorian scores no or negligible NE Euro but otherwise he's not too different from Maharashtrian and Meghawal. Just more South Asian shifted. It's possible your source Patel population is just more more West Asian + Steppe shifted than the Patel samples from GIH and midichlorian himself. I know you mentioned the source population is unlikely to be Kunbi Patels but what about Leuva and Kadva Patels? I'm not sure if any of the Patel results I've seen belong to those two sub-castes.

    Oh, by the way, DNA Land is trash. I get more Gujarati than you and I have 0% Gujarati ancestry. On one run of DNA Land, I get 19% Gujarati and the other run I get 23%. Both results were using 23andMe V3 raw data (one before the data update and one after it). The Gujarati and Dravidian components are here are just generic representations of South Asian ancestry. They don't necessarily indicate real ancestry from these groups. The same applies to the Indus Valley and Indo-Iranian components. One is based on the HGDP Baloch/Brahui and the other on HGDP Pakistanis (Sindhi, Burusho, Pathan, etc.).
    Last edited by Sapporo; 06-30-2018 at 01:16 PM.
    pegasus modeling:

    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

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    The Maharashtrian participants from Zack's harappa project mostly are konkan and desastha Brahmins. There's also one 3/4 Maratha and 1/4 bene israel Jew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    I know you mentioned the source population is unlikely to be Kunbi Patels but what about Leuva and Kadva Patels? I'm not sure if any of the Patel results I've seen belong to those two sub-castes.
    Both Leva and Kadva Patidars are genetically part of the Kunbi/Kumri scheduled tribe (although some may be slightly admixed with higher caste hindus). The leading Kunbis adopted the elite surname "Patel" and distanced themselves from other Kunbis as part of their rise in status under the Maratha and British. Here's a good popular article about it
    The anthropologists answer that it is just like a Patel to deny his true Kanbi heritage. They say the differences between the leading Kanbi and the other Kanbi were relatively small until the mid-1800s, when the British cut the leading Kanbi out of the revenue-collecting power structure
    chicagoreader.com/chicago/who-are-all-those-patels/Content?oid=901436


    In Baden Henry Powell's 1882 book "The Land Systems of British India" he discusses the origin of the muslims and hindus of "Guzarát" landlord villages. Note that there is no such thing as the "patidar" community at this point, he speaks of the Kunbi and the Bohra. Here are some relevant parts regarding the muslims:
    The Guzarát Villages
    It is interesting to notice that while the bulk of the villages in the Guzarát districts exhibit the usual raiyatwäri features there are a certain number of distinctly joint or landlord villages. It may be at once stated that Mr Pedder considers the present joint villages to represent the remains of a much larger number. He thinks the few that survive were either able to stand because of their adopting a peculiar method of combining to share the heavy burden of Maráthá revenue assessments or because of the superior energy of the caste...
    In Broach the villages were called bhágdári and are clearly pattidari villages held on ancestral shares mostly by Mussalmán proprietors of the Bohrá (Boharā) class. These were traders "As late as the eighteenth century" says Mr Campbell, "the sharehold villages were the most numerous and the most prosperous". Mr Rogers thinks the Bohrás got a footing as revenue farmers; or perhaps they stood security for the villages. Possibly they may have been grantees under early Muhammadan rule; or they may have been converts to Islam from old Rájput clans (as were the Khojás) and as such may represent an old territorial nobility, now descended to the rank of peasant-proprietors. They were evidently much depressed by Maráthá rule and fared best in the territories held by the Nawāb of Broach, who, as feudatory to the Maráthá state, was allowed to manage his own country paying only a fixed tribute...
    If we look back to the history of Guzarát we shall find it a somewhat complicated one... At a later period various Rájput clans themselves probably mixed races contended for the mastery in North Bombay and we hear of tribes of Chalukyá Solankhi and Chawárá as successful.
    No less positive evidence of the existence of a Rājput dominion is the fact that Broach, Kaira and part of Ahmadābād formed the khálsa or royal demesne of the Rājā or head chief and that the taluqdāris as they are now called in the South West and West talukás of Ahmadābād once formed the 'bháiád' or feudal chiefs estates. These still exist but are rapidly breaking up and on the way to becoming mere village estates held by joint landlords. Káthiáwār (which is not British territory) is also the site of a number of Rájput chiefships also much subdivided. It is not at all surprising therefore that in the districts where the Rájá has disappeared before later conquest, traces of landlord families should survive in joint or 'shared' villages. Some of these villages again may not be so ancient but only date back to revenue-farmers of former days...
    There is an excellent account of Rajputs in Central India (and it applies also to Guzarāt) in Malcolm, ii p 103, et seq. The Rājputs most probably came as adventurers from the kingdom of Kanauj and were further reinforced when the Muhammadan conquest of Hindustán began to disturb their northorn settlements. Malcolm describes how they mixed with the local population and how spurious Rájput castes arose p 105...
    The Bohrá villages, consisting of shareholders (bhágdárs), were what the North-West Province writers would call pattidéri held on ancestral shares. This is quite natural when their origin can be traced to ancient or comparatively ancient revenue-farmers. The fact that now some shares held by other castes is nothing against the original constitution being as suggested...
    Features of the Joint Village
    These villages, as usual, were found, some of them wholly, divided up into lots, others having part left common... Each several sharer is called pātīdār (here the word patti of North India becomes pāti) and every sharer is given the honorary address of pátel.
    The Land Systems of British India: book 4. The raiyatwérf and allied systems (books.google.com/books?id=hNVHAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA263&dq=Bohrá&hl=en&sa=X &ved=0ahUKEwixpLTCx4TcAhVHFzQIHdUrACUQ6AEIOjAD#v=o nepage&q=Bohrá&f=false)
    Last edited by MuslimPatel123; 07-04-2018 at 08:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuslimPatel123 View Post
    Both Leva and Kadva Patidars are genetically part of the Kunbi/Kumri scheduled tribe (although some may be slightly admixed with higher caste hindus). The leading Kunbis adopted the elite surname "Patel" and distanced themselves from other Kunbis as part of their rise in status under the Maratha and British. Here's a good popular article about it

    chicagoreader.com/chicago/who-are-all-those-patels/Content?oid=901436


    In Baden Henry Powell's 1882 book "The Land Systems of British India" he discusses the origin of the muslims and hindus of "Guzarát" landlord villages. Note that there is no such thing as the "patidar" community at this point, he speaks of the Kunbi and the Bohra. Here are some relevant parts regarding the muslims:


    The Land Systems of British India: book 4. The raiyatwérf and allied systems (books.google.com/books?id=hNVHAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA263&dq=Bohrá&hl=en&sa=X &ved=0ahUKEwixpLTCx4TcAhVHFzQIHdUrACUQ6AEIOjAD#v=o nepage&q=Bohrá&f=false)
    Interesting. I wasn't aware that Leva and Kadva Patels are part of the Kunbi scheduled tribe group. There was a Gujarati Rajput member who previously suggested that Leva Patel were different than Kunbi Patels and may possible score like Lohana. I guess he was way off base.

    Anyways, what do you make of the South Asian populations in your oracles? Do you really think your Hindu "Patel" ancestry was from a source population similar to a Rajasthani SC like Meghwal or Maharashtrian (Konkan and Desastha Brahmins)? What about the West Asian ancestry? Was it likely Iranian or Azeri like?
    pegasus modeling:

    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

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