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Thread: South Asian Genotype Project - Razib Khan

  1. #201
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    This thread needs to stick to Razib's work, take the GIH talk to the thread I just made for it. I might move some posts from here to there.

    EDIT: posts have been moved to: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-and-ASI-Oh-My!
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 07-02-2018 at 09:32 AM.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

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  3. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    This thread need to stick to Razib's work, take the GIH talk to the thread I just made for it. I might move some posts from here to there.

    EDIT: posts have been moved to: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-and-ASI-Oh-My!
    Lmao the title!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Lmao the title!
    I was sensibly chuckling the entire time I was forming the thread. I'm glad someone else LOLed too. Perks of modship.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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  7. #204
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    A new post by Razib with particular reference to Bangladeshis and (somewhat for Tamils). Also, a repost here.

    "Going back the original question in terms of affinities to western and eastern population and Bengalis. There is a northwest to southeast gradient of “Ancestral North Indian” (Iranian farmer + Indo-Aryan) ancestry in South Asia, and that is evident in Bengal. But, Bengalis clearly have a substantial minority ancestral component from Eastern Eurasia, probably via Austro-Asiatic and Tibeto-Burmans tribes. Though some Bengalis have a small proportion of distinct West Asian ancestry that is distinct from what is found typically in South Asians, that’s about one order of less magnitude significant than the East Asian ancestry."
    Paternal; Y-DNA: R1a-L657> Y6> Y11> Y920*
    Paternal; mtDNA: M5b'c
    Maternal; Y-DNA: R1a-M417
    Maternal; mtDNA: M4b1

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  9. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    A new post by Razib with particular reference to Bangladeshis and (somewhat for Tamils). Also, a repost here.

    "Going back the original question in terms of affinities to western and eastern population and Bengalis. There is a northwest to southeast gradient of “Ancestral North Indian” (Iranian farmer + Indo-Aryan) ancestry in South Asia, and that is evident in Bengal. But, Bengalis clearly have a substantial minority ancestral component from Eastern Eurasia, probably via Austro-Asiatic and Tibeto-Burmans tribes. Though some Bengalis have a small proportion of distinct West Asian ancestry that is distinct from what is found typically in South Asians, that’s about one order of less magnitude significant than the East Asian ancestry."
    Great post. I think he's pretty much nailed Bangladeshi genetics, though he probably hasn't analysed the full diversity of West Bengal yet

    Wonder when he'll get onto the Swat samples
    Ancients nmonte: [1] "distance%=2.8958": Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,82.2, Sintashta_MLBA,17.8

    SC Asian ancients with the same uniparental lines:
    Y-dna: BMAC Bustan_BA K1a1 L1a, BMAC Sappali_Tepe_BA U7a3 L1a, Pakistan_IA_Aligrama_all L1a, Loebanr_IA_father T2g1 L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA R30b1 L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA L1a, Saidu Sharif_IA R6b L1a
    Mtdna: Butkara_IA M30b J1, Butkara_IA M30b, Udegram_IA M30+16234, Saidu_Sharif_IA M30, Saidu_Sharif_IA M30d1

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  11. #206
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    Yeah, the lack of West Bengali samples is frustrating. Brahmins probably form less than 5-10% of the population of W Bengal but are very well sampled. The rest of the population is mostly unsampled, and I suspect will score similarly to other Bangladeshis +/- Jharkand and Eastern Bihar. I'd quite like to know how strong the caste structure is there outside of Brahmins, as well as the Austroasiatic component. Leaving the higher castes to one side, phenotypically I don't notice that much difference in the more general population to Bangladeshis - rural or middle class.

    Bangladeshi genetics are becoming clearer but there's still so much yet unexplained. On the old ANI-ASI gradient - despite the relatively high ASI scores, most Bangladeshis tend to consistently score some (albeit small) steppe which even some Gujarati populations lack altogether despite being culturally IndoAryan- why that disparity?

    And the East Asian admixture is a whole different story - when do the admixtures date to historically? How to ascertain the difference between Austroasiatic admixture vs later Tibeto-Burman?

    I've also wondered if some of the higher AASI scores when based on an Onge like ghost, is being pulled across from more genuine East Asian / Austroasiatic component. More and more, I think the ethnogenesis in the east of the subcontinent is fundamentally different to the South in it's components.

    As with most of the subcontinent, the greater the sampling, the better the resolution. Our understanding of Punjabi genetics is miles ahead of most other populations. For Bangladeshis, it's been very much dependent on BEB samples - but sampling the geographic and social differences in the region will help tease out the finer details, whether there is more subtle structure with Bengalis, a truly geographical cline or even a non local signal as alluded to.
    Paternal; Y-DNA: R1a-L657> Y6> Y11> Y920*
    Paternal; mtDNA: M5b'c
    Maternal; Y-DNA: R1a-M417
    Maternal; mtDNA: M4b1

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  13. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    Yeah, the lack of West Bengali samples is frustrating. Brahmins probably form less than 5-10% of the population of W Bengal but are very well sampled. The rest of the population is mostly unsampled, and I suspect will score similarly to other Bangladeshis +/- Jharkand and Eastern Bihar. I'd quite like to know how strong the caste structure is there outside of Brahmins, as well as the Austroasiatic component. Leaving the higher castes to one side, phenotypically I don't notice that much difference in the more general population to Bangladeshis - rural or middle class.

    Bangladeshi genetics are becoming clearer but there's still so much yet unexplained. On the old ANI-ASI gradient - despite the relatively high ASI scores, most Bangladeshis tend to consistently score some (albeit small) steppe which even some Gujarati populations lack altogether despite being culturally IndoAryan- why that disparity?

    And the East Asian admixture is a whole different story - when do the admixtures date to historically? How to ascertain the difference between Austroasiatic admixture vs later Tibeto-Burman?

    I've also wondered if some of the higher AASI scores when based on an Onge like ghost, is being pulled across from more genuine East Asian / Austroasiatic component. More and more, I think the ethnogenesis in the east of the subcontinent is fundamentally different to the South in it's components.

    As with most of the subcontinent, the greater the sampling, the better the resolution. Our understanding of Punjabi genetics is miles ahead of most other populations. For Bangladeshis, it's been very much dependent on BEB samples - but sampling the geographic and social differences in the region will help tease out the finer details, whether there is more subtle structure with Bengalis, a truly geographical cline or even a non local signal as alluded to.
    Historically Xuanzang's* (by land) and Yijng's (by sea) records on 7th century Bangal and Assam are pretty good.
    The Gaur region definitely looked pretty much like eastern Bihar parts of which have been considered Gaur.


    An eastern phenotype is noticed in Kamrup:
    "The men are of small stature, and their complexion a dark yellow. Their language differs a little from that of Mid-India. Their nature is very impetuous and wild; their memories are retentive, and they are earnest in study. They adore and sacrifice to the Devas, and have no faith in Buddha; hence from the time when Buddha appeared in the world even down to the present time there never as yet has been built one sangrahama as a place for the priests to assemble."


    Gaur, Samtat, Tamralipti, Pundr etc., culturally at least were very much like Magadh, Monghyr, Champa, etc.


    *Life: Book IV. Beginning at Champa (modern Bhagalpur) and ending with an Account of the Invitation of the King of Kamarup (modern Assam).
    Siyuki: Book X Monghyr, Champa, Pundravardhan, Kamrup, etc.
    (1) I-lan-na-po-fa- to ; (2) Chen-poj (3) Kie-chu-hoh-Jcai-lo ; (4) Pun-na-fa-tan-na ; (5) Kia-mo lu-po; (6) San-mo-ta-cha; (7) Tan-mo-lae-ti ; (8) Kie-lo-na-su-fa-la-na; (9) U-chaj (10) Kong-u-fo; (n) Xie- ling-kiaj (12) Kiu-sa-loj (13) 'An-ta-lo ; (14) To-na-Me-tse-Jcia ; (15) Chu-li-ye; (16) Ta-lo-pi-cli'a ; (17) Mo-lo-kin-cha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Historically Xuanzang's* (by land) and Yijng's (by sea) records on 7th century Bangal and Assam are pretty good.
    The Gaur region definitely looked pretty much like eastern Bihar parts of which have been considered Gaur.


    An eastern phenotype is noticed in Kamrup:
    "The men are of small stature, and their complexion a dark yellow. Their language differs a little from that of Mid-India. Their nature is very impetuous and wild; their memories are retentive, and they are earnest in study. They adore and sacrifice to the Devas, and have no faith in Buddha; hence from the time when Buddha appeared in the world even down to the present time there never as yet has been built one sangrahama as a place for the priests to assemble."


    Gaur, Samtat, Tamralipti, Pundr etc., culturally at least were very much like Magadh, Monghyr, Champa, etc.


    *Life: Book IV. Beginning at Champa (modern Bhagalpur) and ending with an Account of the Invitation of the King of Kamarup (modern Assam).
    Siyuki: Book X Monghyr, Champa, Pundravardhan, Kamrup, etc.
    (1) I-lan-na-po-fa- to ; (2) Chen-poj (3) Kie-chu-hoh-Jcai-lo ; (4) Pun-na-fa-tan-na ; (5) Kia-mo lu-po; (6) San-mo-ta-cha; (7) Tan-mo-lae-ti ; (8) Kie-lo-na-su-fa-la-na; (9) U-chaj (10) Kong-u-fo; (n) Xie- ling-kiaj (12) Kiu-sa-loj (13) 'An-ta-lo ; (14) To-na-Me-tse-Jcia ; (15) Chu-li-ye; (16) Ta-lo-pi-cli'a ; (17) Mo-lo-kin-cha.
    But the records indicate otherwise. Banglas ruled by dynasties well connected with Indian mainland. Pundra kingdom had high Gandara contact. Look at the statues and terracotta found which resemble the Gandhra and IndoBactrian


    Huge pala viharas continue the Mauryan & Buddhist era arts




    There has been people coming in from Assam & Tibet but these didnt influence the main arts of IronAge/Pundras/Palas/Senas etc...
    nMonte3 current
    Velamas Gujarati_D Muslim_UP Tharus Punjabi_1000genomes
    1.859005 3.210341 4.491247 4.998440 6.040323

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.99 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 65.2 Saidu_Sharif_IA_o:S7722.E1.L1 17.8 Udegram_IA:I1985 7.8 Jordanian:S_Jordanian-1 4.4 Barikot_IA:I6545 2.2 Scotland_N:I26602 Narva_Lithuania: Donkalnis6

    mtDNA mutation 309.1C 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C G8572A G8860A T11368C T16093a T16154C C16519T
    C195T

  16. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    Yeah, the lack of West Bengali samples is frustrating. Brahmins probably form less than 5-10% of the population of W Bengal but are very well sampled. The rest of the population is mostly unsampled, and I suspect will score similarly to other Bangladeshis +/- Jharkand and Eastern Bihar. I'd quite like to know how strong the caste structure is there outside of Brahmins, as well as the Austroasiatic component. Leaving the higher castes to one side, phenotypically I don't notice that much difference in the more general population to Bangladeshis - rural or middle class.

    Bangladeshi genetics are becoming clearer but there's still so much yet unexplained. On the old ANI-ASI gradient - despite the relatively high ASI scores, most Bangladeshis tend to consistently score some (albeit small) steppe which even some Gujarati populations lack altogether despite being culturally IndoAryan- why that disparity?

    And the East Asian admixture is a whole different story - when do the admixtures date to historically? How to ascertain the difference between Austroasiatic admixture vs later Tibeto-Burman?

    I've also wondered if some of the higher AASI scores when based on an Onge like ghost, is being pulled across from more genuine East Asian / Austroasiatic component. More and more, I think the ethnogenesis in the east of the subcontinent is fundamentally different to the South in it's components.

    As with most of the subcontinent, the greater the sampling, the better the resolution. Our understanding of Punjabi genetics is miles ahead of most other populations. For Bangladeshis, it's been very much dependent on BEB samples - but sampling the geographic and social differences in the region will help tease out the finer details, whether there is more subtle structure with Bengalis, a truly geographical cline or even a non local signal as alluded to.
    I was interested in this little teaser as well. It seems he might have been comparing the BEB samples to the Gujarati Patel samples who have little to no Indo-Aryan steppe.

    Or this could be the Saka dna which Kurd keeps detecting in your results

    I've also wondered if some of the higher AASI scores when based on an Onge like ghost, is being pulled across from more genuine East Asian / Austroasiatic component. More and more, I think the ethnogenesis in the east of the subcontinent is fundamentally different to the South in it's components.
    Yes definitely, I think some of that AASI, if based on Onge, is resembling non-AASI SE Asian since Onge is a halfway population between both. Yes I think some of that high AASI Bengalis score is more SE Asian-Munda rather than Paniya-like AASI, and the G25 co-ordinates show this difference by the off-the-cline position Bangladeshis cluster in.

    As with most of the subcontinent, the greater the sampling, the better the resolution. Our understanding of Punjabi genetics is miles ahead of most other populations. For Bangladeshis, it's been very much dependent on BEB samples - but sampling the geographic and social differences in the region will help tease out the finer details, whether there is more subtle structure with Bengalis, a truly geographical cline or even a non local signal as alluded to.
    I disagree to an extent because Bangladesh Bengalis don't have a caste system or a sense of caste-based endogamy. This suggests common founders for the whole population which is what Razib alluded to and fits the data so far. He did mention a West to East geographic cline though, with the East being more E Asian as expected

    This minimal caste structure is similar to other South Asian populations like:

    Sri Lankan Tamils
    Maldivians
    Sinhalese

    Redifflal would be the best person to answer this, but I definitely think West Bengal has more caste structure than just Brahmin vs the rest given how connected the region was to the Indo-Aryan heartland
    Last edited by bmoney; 07-12-2018 at 01:43 PM.
    Ancients nmonte: [1] "distance%=2.8958": Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,82.2, Sintashta_MLBA,17.8

    SC Asian ancients with the same uniparental lines:
    Y-dna: BMAC Bustan_BA K1a1 L1a, BMAC Sappali_Tepe_BA U7a3 L1a, Pakistan_IA_Aligrama_all L1a, Loebanr_IA_father T2g1 L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA R30b1 L1a, SPGT Loebanr_IA L1a, Saidu Sharif_IA R6b L1a
    Mtdna: Butkara_IA M30b J1, Butkara_IA M30b, Udegram_IA M30+16234, Saidu_Sharif_IA M30, Saidu_Sharif_IA M30d1

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  18. #210
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    How legit is this project compared to harappa, dodecad, and other more common south asian projects?

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