R1a-M458-L1029*

[Dibran]

Hi all,

So I finally received my full genomes file. I haven't been able to reach Michal. However, the admins at Albanian Bloodlines were able to look over my interpretation file. I am positive for L1029 but do not share any of the downstream SNPs on Yfull. So I am predicted to fall under L1029*. TMRCA seems to be 2000ybp, if I am reading correctly. I may or may not share a SNP with the German or Norwegian sample. I will have to wait until I receive my BAM file monday, to upload to Yfull to see exactly how it splits. I have 26 unique SNPs. Only one of which I share with 2 kits on FullGenomes. Idk their country of origin, but TMCA between us was 2,340 years(common ancestor approximately 340 BC).

I know L1029 is considered typically Slavic. But the Slavic samples seem to belong more downstream under L1029. If the TMRCA is 2000ypb. How could it have arrived in Albania?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/

[Dibran]

Bump...any input?

[lgmayka]

Do we have a reasonable explanation for how a rare 1500-year-old subclade of R-L1029 ended up in Beijing and southeastern Poland?

[Pribislav]

I know L1029 is considered typically Slavic. But the Slavic samples seem to belong more downstream under L1029. If the TMRCA is 2000ypb. How could it have arrived in Albania?

Could you elaborate the second sentence? Slavs carried wide array of M458 clades, including the rare ones, so your clade most likely arrived with Slavs, as we know they've settled large parts of Albania and Macedonia.

[Tomenable]

Do we have a reasonable explanation for how a rare 1500-year-old subclade of R-L1029 ended up in Beijing and southeastern Poland?

Maybe?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_of_Poland

[dink]

your clade most likely arrived with Slavs, as we know they've settled large parts of Albania and Macedonia.

Captain obvious.

[Waldemar]

We definitely need more aDNA samples to determine the origin of R-L1029.

I belong to currently only known sample of R-Y2912* (formed 1800 ybp, TMRCA 1700 ybp). Downstream clades of R-Y2912 belong to people who have paternal ancestors from Poland (Silesia, Kashubia, East Prussia) and Germany (Baden-Württemberg, Saxony).

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2912/

Upstream clade R-YP263* (formed 2000 ybp, TMRCA 1800 ybp) was found in Gotland, Holstein and Circassia.

Maybe first waves of R-L1029 arrived to the Balkans and Sardinia along with East Germanic or/and Sarmatian tribes. "The Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways."

[Dibran]

Could you elaborate the second sentence? Slavs carried wide array of M458 clades, including the rare ones, so your clade most likely arrived with Slavs, as we know they've settled large parts of Albania and Macedonia.

What I meant was that it is Balto-Slavic derived as in it came from NE europe at some point in time. But, what I meant with regards to my sample, is that I lack ALL not some, but ALL downstream SNPs that formed as a result of great migration patterns. My TMRCA is also 2000ypb which is before the great migration events. While its still likely, there is also probability it had other avenues of arrival. Considering L1029* is a little more widespread, and given its older TMRCA, it could just as easily been absorbed by the movement of East Germanic tribes. Even the Bastarnae spread throughout eastern Europe. Tribes were less compact and more mobile back then.

I think people are just too quick to label an entire lineage Slavic. And be so stubborn to consider other avenues of transmission. For example the Sardinian L1029*(assuming he is native), could only have been transmitted by Vandals, Goths, or Byzantines.

The only way I see it being specifically Slavic(as in the earliest ancestor to bring it spoke Slavic themselves) is if it was via hired Antes mercenaries that Romans used against the Huns much earlier, or small waves of slavic farmers that settled byzantium prior to the larger great migration wave.

Also, my village was settled by German forces in 900ad. They could have just as easily also brought it. my TMRCA lines up with the time frame of some east germanic tribal incursions into byzantium. Give the wide expanse of land traversed by Bastarnae, they could have easily absorbed it. The Dacians at their peak occupied up to the Balts, where L1029 could have been absorbed. There is any number of possible scenarios.

If I was further downstream of L1029, I think it would be obvious the likely arrival was from Avaro-Slavs during the great migration. I lack all of them though. This brings that scenario into question.

There were numerous tribes in late BC/early AD that penetrated the Balkans. Many of these tribes spread out in east europe as well. I think adopting a sense of certainty is counter productive. After all the science is still in its infancy, and people are still using modern social cultural distinctions and borders to extract these narratives.

If all my Y12 matches for instances are spread from east to central europe, theres no certainty or guarantee that our ancestral match spoke Slavic just because the modern match was Slavic. Take V13 for instance. Not all of it is Albanian or brought by Albanians, just because its predominantly found in them.

Sorry if I wrote an essay, but you said to elaborate on that sentence haha.

[Trojet]

Dibran, I think you might be confused in regards to TMRCA estimates. In this case The Most Recent Common Ancestor of anyone who is under L1029 lived ~2000 years ago. If we assume that L1029 expanded out of Central or Eastern Europe, then your line could've migrated to Albania sometime after 2000 years ago, and not exactly 2000 years ago.

The Italian who is right underneath L1029 is not L1029* (which would mean negative for all downstreams). The reason why he is placed as such must be because his status is unknown (whether positive or negative) for one or more L1029 sub-branches.

Anyways, we need to wait until the YFull analysis is done to confirm terminal placement. Also, another thing to keep in mind is if you end up being L1029* or share a SNP with an existing L1029* sample, it doesn't mean that you will stay forever like that. As we know, the YFull tree is based on only NGS tests which not every L1029 has taken. So there may be other L1029 out there who in the future take an NGS test and share one or more of your Novel or Unique SNPs, and therefore will form a sub-branch with a younger TMRCA between you two.

[dink]

Maybe it came to the Balkans with space aliens.