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Thread: T2b33

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    T2b33

    I'd like to hear from other T2b33s.
    The origin of T2b33 is still marked as undetermined on Haplogroup dot org. That may still be so. Nevertheless, the earliest appearance of which we know, unless I am mistaken, is in the sole sample from Königsbrunn Ampack, Lech Valley, Southern Germany, dated between 2450-2310 cal BCE. He (it was a male) had private mutation 16296T. (Supporting Info., Knipper et al. (2017). “Female exogamy and gene pool diversification at the transition from the Final Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age in central Europe.” PNAS. 10083–10088.)
    Ancestresses along my maternal line hail from Salzburg, less than 225 km away from Königsbrunn. What a happy coincidence.
    Following ancient DNA breadcrumbs, it is not hard to imagine the path T2bs forged from their currently earliest recorded location in northwestern Anatolia to southern Germany: from Barcin and Aktopraklik (roughly the Bursa Area in Turkey) around 6500-5500 BCE, through to Dzulyunita (perhaps), Malak Preslavets, the Iron Gates area, then Hungary, Austria, Germany. They must have travelled up the Danube to the Lech, and followed the course of the Lech (which is not navigable) southward. Today, the distance between Bursa and Königsbrunn can be covered in less than 24 hours by car. Back then, what an adventure it must have been!

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    A bit more information about the currently earliest known identification of T2b33 (please correct me if I am wrong):

    The sample, labeled Königsbrunn, Ampack Grave Number 1, is first discussed in Stockhammer et al. 2015. Rewriting the Central European Bronze Age Chronology. PLOS ONE. The sample from Königsbrunn Ampack 1 was dated to 2476-2310 cal BCE (Table 2).

    The conclusion of the article is the following: “We have demonstrated that the transition from the LN to the EBA happened without a significant gap or overlap in southern Germany around 2150 BC” (29).

    The identification of the haplogroup to which this sample belongs as T2b33 is in the Supplement to Knipper et al. 2017. Female exogamy and gene pool diversification at the transition from the Final Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age in central Europe. PNAS.

    Thus, the mutation that led to T2b33 occurred before the transition from the Late Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age in southern Germany.

    This looks like the most recent update on the origins of T2b33.

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    T2b33 subclade origin in southern Germany?

    That the earliest sample of T2b33 found so far is in southern Germany doesn’t necessarily mean T2b33 originated there.
    It would be interesting if people could find evidence that either strengthens or weakens support for the hypothesis that this specific subclade of T2b originated in southern Germany. (Why? It’s totally useless information. But fun, at least for some of us, and my username is Fungene, after all).

    T2b in Europe is certain —as certain as it gets in these things— to have spread with the arrival of Neolithic Anatolian farmers.
    Going forward in time, T2b individuals show up all over Europe, and sometimes they surprise us. Some of them were in the wrong place, like Pompeii, when things went really bad. One T2b lady dug up in Sweden turned out to be a Viking warrior. Some T2bs ended up in the steppe as consorts (?) of Scythian pastoralists-warriors.

    What about T2b33? For the moment, we know that T2b33 shows up in Bavaria, south of Augsburg, in Königsbrunn, in a grave identified as belonging to the Bell Beaker culture.

    Today, there are T2b33s all over Western Europe, but I haven’t found many. And there are still some in southern Germany; one, for instance, a mere 125 km away from Königsbrunn. Coincidence? Maybe.
    Do we have more T2b33s who know something about their ancestry?

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    Because we like pictures and I have a weakness for factoids:



    http://www.lechrain-geschichte.de/Hi...nn-Museum.html
    https://www.koenigsbrunn.de/kultur/m...isches-museum/

    “The skeletal material from … Königsbrunn (Obere Kreuzstraße; Ampack)…is kept in the Archäologisches Museum.” (Stockhammer et al. 2015. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...type=printable)

    There were five individuals from Ampack, one of which was sampled. It doesn’t say how many were male and how many were female.
    The individual found at Obere Kreuzstraße, Ampack and sampled is our T2b33. (presumably the same one that was carbon-dated was also sampled for DNA.)
    Knipper et al. 2017. Female exogamy… (http://www.pnas.org/content/114/38/1...b-figures-data) tells us that the one sampled individual was a male at least 21 years of age.

    The individual in the illustration looks male and all grown up. Nice teeth, which you can see in some of the pictures online. Who knows, this could be what our currently oldest dated T2b33 looks like (at least a 20% probability he’s the one.) Wonder what his autosome was like.

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    Hmm I am T2b2b - apparently most common in Ireland (lines up with my MDKA for my maternal line 3rd GGM was born in Ireland)... also T2b (and T2b2b) seems to have a connection to Scandinavia? Also I noticed there was a fair bit of T2b in the Steppe remains from the most recent papers... I think some T2b was also found in Italy - at Pompeii? I think with mtDNA the mutations happen so rarely that it's hard to trace accurately unless you have recent mutations and closer matches with someone? I am not as familiar with mtDNA as I am with Y-DNA (the most familiar) and autosomal (fairly familiar)... but I was given the T2b2b haplogroup designation from my National Genographic results and transferred them to FTDNA. An interesting match the T2b2b shares is the Outlaw Jesse James who was T2b2b haha - I believe his maternal was Irish - which would make sense from the research I've done including my own MDKA and the overall T2b2b itself in reported MDKA origins (mostly Irish/Scan).

    Edit: I think I remember from a recent paper - that one male close relative to King Bela of Hungary - the male that was buried near him... had a maternal line that was T2b2b1 for what it's worth... I'll have to look into that as I suppose I am closer to that line than the lady from Birka ;-)? According to Bela paper: T2b2b1 for person II/52 buried in same tomb.
    Last edited by Bollox79; 05-20-2018 at 10:37 AM.
    Y-DNA: 5th GGF Captain Johann Martin Weber, 1st Pennsylvania (Long) Rifles/Rangers of the Frontier, Rev. War, b. 1739 in Rhineland, Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA. : R1b-U106-DF98... S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - the largest/ tallest of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers of Eboracum skeletons examined!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Tipperary, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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    The T2b's appear to have been pretty successful, on the whole (hanging around Pompei for too long was not a good idea.)
    Do you know what the earliest reported T2b2b is? What have you seen in supplements to recent papers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fungene View Post
    The T2b's appear to have been pretty successful, on the whole (hanging around Pompei for too long was not a good idea.)
    Do you know what the earliest reported T2b2b is? What have you seen in supplements to recent papers?
    Hmm two T2b ancient or medieval results off the top of my head (other than the T2b from Pompeii - maybe some T2b or T2b2b has been found in relation to Steppe Bronze Age?) is the relative (Y-DNA and autosomal match) of King Bela III of Hungary - this unknown male match buried near Bela has the maternal DNA T2b2b1.

    We just got another T2b2b result from the Icelandic early settler paper - sample SSGA-3 who appears to have mixed Norse/Gaelic ancestry (possibly Scandi on his father's side as he is haplogroup I1 and Gaelic on his mother's side T2b2b?) and has the maternal haplogroup T2b2b. He is listed as a non-local migrant on his isotope markers and is buried near other Gaelic males who were buried with weapons etc. Supplemental here Fungene if you want to take a look! http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...sdottir-SM.pdf
    Last edited by Bollox79; 06-03-2018 at 04:33 AM.
    Y-DNA: 5th GGF Captain Johann Martin Weber, 1st Pennsylvania (Long) Rifles/Rangers of the Frontier, Rev. War, b. 1739 in Rhineland, Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA. : R1b-U106-DF98... S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - the largest/ tallest of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers of Eboracum skeletons examined!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Tipperary, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post

    We just got another T2b2b result from the Icelandic early settler paper - sample SSGA-3 who appears to have mixed Norse/Gaelic ancestry (possibly Scandi on his father's side as he is haplogroup I1 and Gaelic on his mother's side T2b2b?) and has the maternal haplogroup T2b2b. He is listed as a non-local migrant on his isotope markers and is buried near other Gaelic males who were buried with weapons etc. Supplemental here Fungene if you want to take a look! http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...sdottir-SM.pdf
    Thanks! I did take a look. Interesting information. I also thought T2b2b is a haplogroup that first showed up in the BA.
    But I just realized there is another sample hiding in plain sight. In Mathieson 2018.
    ANI159-ANI181/VAR117-I, 4711-4530 calBCE, Bulgaria_Varna_Eneolithic2, T2b2b, G2a2b2b. There is a picture of the fellow in the Supplementary Information. Not the Golden Man himself, but buried in very good company.
    No doubt about it, T2b2b started out as a farmer lineage.
    Last edited by Fungene; 06-03-2018 at 12:44 PM.

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