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Thread: What haplogroups do you predict Old to Middle Kingdom Egyptians to have overall?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by K33 View Post
    Yeah, thats probably based on the rumor that King Tut was R1b (which wouldn't prove much anyway especially if he was V-88)

    I will say tho: it does seem that the Old Egyptians' Libyan neighbors were quite "White" looking. There is ample, primary evidence from Egyptian art depicting them as such.

    The recent paper North Africa revealed WHG/Anatolia_N introgression into Moroccan populations during the Copper Age... Is it possible that this migration was much more numerically significant in Libya (as opposed to Morocco)?
    The European mixture into Moroccans is distinctly Iberian, no questions. I'm not sure about Libyans, but Tunisians don't show the same pattern, they appear to have more Central or Eastern Mediterranean influence. I was able to model Tunisians using double-outgroup d-stats as...

    TUNISIAN
    39.7% Moroccan
    20.0% Cypriot
    17.8% Sardinian
    14.0% BedouinB
    8.0% Yoruba
    1.2% Ulchi
    -0.6% Loschbour
    Outgroups: Ami, Anatolia_Neolithic, Bichon, Iberia_EN, Iran_Chalcolithic, Karitiana, Kostenki14, Kotias, Papuan, Ust_Ishim, Yamnaya_Samara

    The Iberian MN/CA that works wonders for modeling Moroccans doesn't work here. Then again who knows how much of that Cypriot/Sardinian is more recent than the timeframe we are talking about. Maybe 4,000 years ago Tunisians were more Moroccan-like.
    Last edited by Kale; 01-11-2018 at 06:32 AM.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umer View Post
    What modern population would be the best match for the Old Kingdom to Middle Kingdom Egyptians?
    I would bet on Copts, since they seem to lack the elevated SSA ancestry that Muslim Egyptians seem to possess.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by K33 View Post
    Back on topic: 2 things I'm most interested in from Old Kingdom DNA:

    a) When did "Iran Chalcolithic"-type ancestry arrive in Egypt? I suppose an archaeologist would posit immediately prior to the Early Dynastic period? Its clearly present in the New Kingdom samples from Schuenemann et al 2017, and I doubt any mass migrations to Egypt occured during the Old/Middle Kingdom
    That really seems to be the main question worth asking at this point. Personally, I would tie the arrival of the Iran_Chl-type admixture in Egypt to that of the so-called "Asiatics" (ꜥꜣm.w /ꜥAamu/) who essentially were early Canaanites. We know from the archeological and epigraphic record that the "Asiatic" population was increasing rapidly under the Thirteenth Dynasty, in fact the earliest Semitic pharaoh we know of (Khendjer) belonged to the very same dynasty, this is also borne out by the fact that the Fourteenth Dynasty seems to have been principally Canaanite in origin (this was before the Hyksos). Assuming that not all of these "Asiatics" were killed or kicked out, this would suffice to produce the amount of Iran_Chl-type admixture we see in the samples from Abusir el Malaq (which is one of the few Hyksos sites identified so far in Egypt that isn't anywhere near Avaris).

    An earlier arrival of this component remains possible of course, however it would require a reassessment of Egypt's links to SW Asia during the 4th and 3rd millennia BCE. Judging from the evidence we have so far, it looks like this component is going to be strictly associated with Semitic-speaking groups.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 01-11-2018 at 11:14 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    An earlier arrival of this component remains possible of course, however it would require a reassessment of Egypt's links to SW Asia during the 4th and 3rd millennia BCE. Judging from the evidence we have so far, it looks like this component is going to be strictly associated with Semitic-speaking groups.
    It does indeed seem Iran_Chl-type ancestry goes hand-in-hand with the spread of Semitic languages and y-dna J1 (and possibly J2), and they seem to spread around the exact time Akkad becomes a dominant power in north Mesopotamia. But it still perplexes me to no end that Bedouins and Saudis-- Semites and J1-bearers par excellence-- have the lowest amount of Iran_Chl ancestry in the Middle East, and the highest Natufian-related ancestry.

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by K33 View Post
    It does indeed seem Iran_Chl-type ancestry goes hand-in-hand with the spread of Semitic languages and y-dna J1 (and possibly J2), and they seem to spread around the exact time Akkad becomes a dominant power in north Mesopotamia. But it still perplexes me to no end that Bedouins and Saudis-- Semites and J1-bearers par excellence-- have the lowest amount of Iran_Chl ancestry in the Middle East, and the highest Natufian-related ancestry.
    I think this is due to a founder effect. Today the Bedouins are Semites par excellence, but my current belief is that the original Semitic speakers had a higher level of Iran_Chl, and were located in the Levant, not Arabia. When the Semitic expansion moved into Arabia, they recruited native Natufian related people into their culture with sex biased admixture.

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  11. #26
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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psynome View Post
    I think this is due to a founder effect. Today the Bedouins are Semites par excellence, but my current belief is that the original Semitic speakers had a higher level of Iran_Chl, and were located in the Levant, not Arabia. When the Semitic expansion moved into Arabia, they recruited native Natufian related people into their culture with sex biased admixture.
    It most certainly is. However, I'm not exactly sure the Proto-Semites had a greater amount of Iran_Chl-like admixture, especially if we assume that Jordan_EBA resembles them the most (and there are good reasons to make such an assumption) in which case present-day Arabians would not be very different from them. J1 probably arrived in the [Southern] Levant with an intrusive minority which brought Iran_Chl-like admixture during the Late Neolithic-Early Chalcolithic period, the major founder effects under J1-L862 that occurred during the late 5th & early 4th millennia BCE ultimately coincide with the break up of Common Semitic, so while it clearly seems to have been a major marker among the Proto-Semites, this arguably did not reflect any substantial increase in the levels of Iran_Chl-like admixture (which must've been virtually fixed by that time).
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    E-V12
    Indeed John. When I told my dad that our direct line is almost certain Egyptian, he was not surprised lol.
    Jtest - Evil twin phase
    AJ + Serbian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + Ukrainian-Russian @ 5.893190

    McDonald
    Most likely fit is 68% (+- 11.8%) Europe (various subcontinents)
    and 32% (+- 11.8%) Mideast (various subcontinents)


    Hungary 0.7479 Jewish 0.2521
    Romania 0.9359 Jewish 0.0641
    Germany 0.6305 Sephardic 0.3695
    Hungary 0.7310 Sephardic 0.2690
    Poland 0.5583 Sephardic 0.4417


    Eurogenes K13
    Algerian_Jewish + Bulgarian + East_Sicilian + La_Brana-1 @ 5.135429

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  17. #29
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    Undifferentiated E-V12* lineages (not E-V32 or E-M224, so therefore named "E-V12*") peak in frequency among Southern Egyptians (upto 74.5%).[17] The subclades are also scattered widely in small amounts in both Northern Africa and Europe, but with very little sign in Western Asia, apart from Turkey.[2] These E-V12* lineages were formerly included (along with many E-V22* lineages[Note 1]) in Cruciani et al.'s original (2004) "delta cluster", which he had defined using Y-STR profiles. With the discovery of the defining SNP, Cruciani et al. (2007) reported that V12* was found in its highest concentrations in Egypt, especially Southern Egypt. Hassan et al. (2008) report a significant presence of E-V12* in neighboring Sudan, including 5/33 Copts and 5/39 Nubians.
    Jtest - Evil twin phase
    AJ + Serbian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + Ukrainian-Russian @ 5.893190

    McDonald
    Most likely fit is 68% (+- 11.8%) Europe (various subcontinents)
    and 32% (+- 11.8%) Mideast (various subcontinents)


    Hungary 0.7479 Jewish 0.2521
    Romania 0.9359 Jewish 0.0641
    Germany 0.6305 Sephardic 0.3695
    Hungary 0.7310 Sephardic 0.2690
    Poland 0.5583 Sephardic 0.4417


    Eurogenes K13
    Algerian_Jewish + Bulgarian + East_Sicilian + La_Brana-1 @ 5.135429

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  19. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    It most certainly is. However, I'm not exactly sure the Proto-Semites had a greater amount of Iran_Chl-like admixture, especially if we assume that Jordan_EBA resembles them the most (and there are good reasons to make such an assumption) in which case present-day Arabians would not be very different from them. J1 probably arrived in the [Southern] Levant with an intrusive minority which brought Iran_Chl-like admixture during the Late Neolithic-Early Chalcolithic period, the major founder effects under J1-L862 that occurred during the late 5th & early 4th millennia BCE ultimately coincide with the break up of Common Semitic, so while it clearly seems to have been a major marker among the Proto-Semites, this arguably did not reflect any substantial increase in the levels of Iran_Chl-like admixture (which must've been virtually fixed by that time).
    That makes more sense. I agree. Any candidate cultures for the vector of J1 and Iran_Chl into the Levant?

    My prediction for Old and Middle Kingdom Egypt: E1b1b, J1, T predominate, especially E1b1b.

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