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Thread: Are the Scythians/Sarmatians Iranic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Only one source describes the people of this zone as 'Scythian ploughmen' - Herodotus. It should not be taken literally. He was writing centuries before the Greeks had a name for the Slavs or any specific knowledge of them. Greek geographers just labelled the whole region from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to the Baltic as 'Scythia', after the people they encountered on the steppe. Roman geographers called it 'Sarmatia'. Given the obsurity of the Slavs from the Greek perspective, Herodotus was doing well even to have the vaguest notion that there existed a non-nomadic farming people somewhere north of the actual Scythians.
    Yes that's true
    I've said similar for Tacitus, even jordanes, when it comes to eastern barbaricum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Yes that's true
    I've said similar for Tacitus, even jordanes, when it comes to eastern barbaricum
    Tacitus certainly had no clue about the Slavs, but when some Slavs begn raiding into the Byzantine Empire, they came onto the radar of the literate in a big way. It is not just Jordanes who wrote about them, but Procopius and the author of Maurice's Strategikon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Tacitus certainly had no clue about the Slavs, but when some Slavs begn raiding into the Byzantine Empire, they came onto the radar of the literate in a big way. It is not just Jordanes who wrote about them, but Procopius and the author of Maurice's Strategikon.
    Correct , but it is only Jordannes of the Byzantine orbit who (anachronistically) connects them with Venedi
    The most accurate is the Stratejikon, because he actually encountered Slavs in the campaigns etc
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 01-12-2018 at 06:55 AM.

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    Jats of south asia also have shown significant admixture of scythians (east iranian speaker) who ruled in the transoxiana and caspian sea area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    There's a layer of Iranic words in proto-Slavic. There're published studies on the subject by Trubachev and others. Perhaps most known loanword is Bog (God) derived from Iranic Baga or Bhaga. Other Indo-European don't use this word. Even Balts don't use Bog for God. So is rai (*rajь / heaven) likely Iranic in origin.
    In Khotanese Saka(Eastern Scythian) 'Tusita' means heaven; Avestan/Sanskrit-Dyao(u).
    "Baga" is sort of a royal title in Saka.
    In Avesta 'Deva' means false god- opposite in Sanskrit; the word would be "Paiti/pati" as in 'lord of' in Avestan, same in Sanskrit.

    "Bhaga" is more Sanskrit shifted for the word 'god' if you will.
    Bhagawan- generic word for god in Sanskrit amongst Hindus.
    Baga/Bhaga means wealth(many other synonyms) in Avestan/Sanskrit.

    Modern day Iranics use "Khoda/Khudai" for god.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    Baga/Bhaga means wealth(many other synonyms) in Avestan/Sanskrit.
    The same pair of meanings exists in Slavic:

    Bog - god
    Bogat - wealthy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    DMXX has good info in his linked post. From a genetic perspective I have diploid genotyped the Volga River I0247 sample which happens to be the W Scythian sample with the highest coverage. Unfortunately that is the only one I have analyzed at depth since the coverages on the other western samples have not been good. Thus the analysis I have posted at http://www.eurasiandna.com/2017/10/0...e-ancient-dna/ can’t be generalized to apply to all Scythians as I’m sure there will be quite a bit of variation.

    A couple of things stand out with the I0247 sample when compared to other steppe cultures such as Yamna Srubna Andronovo etc. One is their elevated E Eurasian admixture and the other their genetic affinity to Iranics such as Kurds Tajiks and some plateau Iranians.

    I am about to conclude a month long study of developing more robust methods than dstats f3s and ADMIXTURE to analyze genomes for specific shared drift. The method basically identifies unique signature alleles specific to a target population. Unlike dstats which suffer from outgroup bias* (results dependent on chosen outgroup which I also demonstrate at length) and f3s which are vague, my method which is “outgroupless” can also be used to compare test populations with very divergent drift histories (from different parts of the world) to a target population. I used it to drill down W Scythians, Yamna, and Srubna. Although not shocking, the results are nonetheless very informative. The study will be publshed on my website soon.

    There is also obviously a connection** between I0247 and northern and Eastern Europeans due to the high number of shared alleles. Important to remember is a population with say 10% E Eurasian admixture only contributes about 2.5% E Eurasian admixture to a population that is 25% derived from it.
    Is it possible that a hypothetical population in Eastern Europe came to be dominated by a Scythian/Sarmatian elite? If this "elite" comprised of, lets say, 10-25% of the population, the autosomal E Eurasian portion of the overall population would be buried (.1 x .25= .025 like you point out). However, Y-DNA lineages could still grow to make up a large share of the population due to some sort of elite dominance?

    If so, then what if (I have no idea how crazy this sounds?) the Scythians introduced M458 (and a lot of other Z282 clades) into Eastern Europe, but due to the above, the amount of E Eurasian they carried is not found in the populations of Europe today. I know M458 is a 'Slavic' subclade typically. And from my understanding it appears that most of it's subclades came to central europe from the east. More specifically it seems likely they came from the area of Ukraine/Belarus. The Sarmatians seemed to dominate that region up to the arrival of the Goths and Huns. After the Hunnic empire fell apart, the Slavs appear in the same location the Scythians/Sarmatians once existed.

    I don't know much about their history, so if I am grossly wrong please let me know how!


    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Although there aren't any R1a1a-Z93's among them, two of the Kharkiv-derived samples are R1a-Z282+. It just so happens that Z282 has been picked up in South-Central Asia (please see this thread). One of our mods (khanabadoshi) is of Pakistani heritage and is R1a-Z282+ (Y17491 > YP4858). According to YFull, the YP4858 has a MRCA dating to 1200 B.C. Per the R1a1a and Subclades FTDNA Project, the majority of the YP4858 members are of East European (Ukraine, Baltic), West Asian (Turks, Kurds, Iranians) or Levantine (Lebanese) heritage.

    However, neither of the Kharkiv Z282's are Y17491+ (they are Z92+ and M458+). I've undertaken a cursory search and can't find any recent Y-DNA studies sampling populations from Kharkiv.
    M458 in Kharkiv too...?
    Last edited by Brent.B; 01-13-2018 at 02:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    It’s known that people living on territories of modern day Turkmenistan were Iranic as late as 10-11th century AD. So was Sogdia as per archaeological evidence and historic records. Tajiks are descendants of those whose ancestors were pushed into mountains by arriving Turkic. Possibly nomadic Iranic roamed what is present day western Kazakhstan. If Iranic were nomads they could reach Pontic-Caspian steppes leaving hydronyms and names of their rulers in historic records. Ancestors of Ossetians (Alans) obtained their language from some Iranic speakers while being genetically similar to autochthonous people of northern Caucasus.
    Can you mention some Iranic etymologies of Scythian anthroponyms or toponyms you consider acceptable?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    Can you mention some Iranic etymologies of Scythian anthroponyms or toponyms you consider acceptable?
    Don, Dniepr, Dniestr, Danube.

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